Posts by mizpah

20

Death anxiety......ever happen to you?

by shotgun in

the other night i'm in bed trying to fall asleep with my tornado of thoughts swirling this way and that and for no apparent reason i started to have an anxiety attack thinking about death.

it was easy to accept so many things about death when you believed it's never going to happen or that if it does i'll be back..just like arnold.. when i speak to non-dubs they don't seem to experience it as much because death has always been an accepted part of life to them.. i can't go back to thinking like a dub and i admit i'm a non-bible believer now and not even sure about the existence of god..at least not the biblical one.

so i guess i can only look forward to a long healthy life and hope that the last thing i see before i die is the face of my daughter holding her grandchild.. have many of you had this anxiety attack after leaving the borg?.

mizpah

As a Jehovah's Witness the belief that we could live through Armageddon and live forever on a paradise earth was so pervasive that I never thought about death and dying. But once I left the organization, the one reality that dawned on me was that I was going to die some day.

However, it had a positive effect. As a JW I always looked to the future for enjoyment and pleasure. The present was just a means of getting there. But now, the reality of death makes me appreciate every day of life. I can now "take time to smell the flowers" because I am no longer caught up in the race and pace of a Watchtower schedule.

6

Churches

by DJ in

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i haven't been around in a while, so a big hello to all.

www.calvarychapel.com/affiliates

mizpah

DJ:

I'm happy for you that you have found another group that offers spiritual comfort. But always remember to focus in on God and Christ rather than the human organization. Too many have been "twiced burned" by seeking another religious organization to replace the disappointment and failure of the Watchtower Society only to find that human imperfections are found in every organization.

19

The necessity of "Spiritualizing" prophecy fullfillment

by refiners fire in

the watchtower organization has certainly, in times past, taken an absolute position on the matter of interpreting prophetic scripture passages.

but they are not the only ones guilty of that crime.

it is easy to demonstrate the same pattern from adventism, and ( as i have done previously) from many other churches of the ?born again?

mizpah

RF:

Interesting observations and comments. I couldn't agree more that the Watchtower is more dishonest in their practice to sweep everything under the rug.

"Spiritualizing" scripture and prophecy has a long standing history. One of the early attempts is found in The City of God by Augustine. He tried to explain scripture in view of events occurring in his day. Since the early expectations of Christ imminent coming failed, he allegorized the scriptures and applied them to the Church in Rome. This practice continues in one form or another to this day.

I can understand how Christians desire the return of Christ and are impatiently convinced that their era is the one prophesied about in the Bible. But when it becomes plain that they are mistaken, it would be nice if they humbly apologized and asked the forgiveness of their followers. The only example of this that I am aware of was William Miller himself. When his predictions failed, he did apologize for his errors. A rare man, indeed!

51

Jesus came in 1874 and then changed to 1914, no problem, per FDS

by garybuss in

prefatory note .

(to watch tower reprints wtb&ts 1919) .

the watch tower is unique among all the publications in the world.

mizpah

Garybus:

I think you are correct in saying that the SDAs believe that Christ did appear in the heavenly sanctuary in 1843/44.(Thus, the "tarrying" before the big event.) But this must not be confused with their belief in the second coming of Christ on earth which they still believe is a future event. In their belief system, this is to be a literal and visible return.

I think what was probably "borrowed" from the SDAs in the Watchtower Society was the idea of wrong expectations. Adventists reasoned that as Millerites they had been looking for the wrong event (second coming of Christ) at the right time (Christ's appearance in the sanctuary). But the Bible Students thought in reverse that the right event (Christ's second coming) occurred in 1874 but their previous expectations (a visible coming) were wrong since it was an invisible "parousia" in the heavens.

51

Jesus came in 1874 and then changed to 1914, no problem, per FDS

by garybuss in

prefatory note .

(to watch tower reprints wtb&ts 1919) .

the watch tower is unique among all the publications in the world.

mizpah

Ohappyday:

I agree with you. There is much to admire in the SDA church. Some of their hospitals and care facilities are the best in the country. And they live a quiet Christian life devoted to helping their neighbors. We had neighbors who were members. They were fine and decent Christian people.

I never could agree with their sabbath (Saturday) doctrine or with their emphasis on vegetarianism. Ellen White was a controversial leader (prophetess) of the movement. And they have also been beset by dissidents. (David Koresh of the Branch Davidians was a former member.)

It's hard to realize that Jehovah's Witnesses are "distant spiritual cousins" to this Adventist group by virtue of William Miller, the father of the Adventist movement.

14

Reformers repeat mistake....

by mizpah in

i'm reading a fascinating book, god's best seller, by brian moynahan.

in it he documents how a few men like wycliff and tyndale risked their lives to make the bible available to the common people.

the catholic church violently opposed these efforts and persecuted all who were involved in the translating, publishing and distributing the scriptures.

mizpah

Ohappyday:

It always amazes me how quickly human organizations detriorate from their original purposes and goals. Groups form with altruistic ideals. But humans take control and use the organization for their own selfish purposes. Dissidents leave and form new groups. This pattern has repeated itself in the numerous religious sects we have today.

Russell was orginally "anti-organization." But by the end of his presidency, he became the head of a religious organization...however loosely it was in form. But Rutherford became its authoritarian leader who tolerated no opposition what-so-ever. And Jehovah's Witnesses live with this legacy to this day.

I think it does become a matter of authority and power as you mentioned. But this also contains the seeds of self destruction. The "apostates" who have left the organization have been very vocal and active in denouncing the spiritual dictatorship of the Watchtower Society. And the bad publicity that has been generated has alerted people to the dangers of this organization.

What I find fascinating is that the long history of the church has been repeated in the short history of the Watchtower Society. ("The more things change, the more it remains the same.")

15

Bring it in a bag

by Nosferatu in

anyone ever remember this council?

whenever you're bringing an item to the meeting to give to someone else, and it's not theocratic, you should deliver the item in a bag.

i found this to be the most rediculous thing i ever heard.

mizpah

I never heard this counsel. But it sounds like it might have originated by someone (an elder?) who didn't like the idea that personal things like gifts were being passed around in the Kingdom Hall. So, it the items were in a bag, it would be inconspicuous to the others. Thus, it would not "draw attention away" from the purpose of being at the Kingdom Hall.

Yes, it is ridiculous. But that was and is the mentality of many elders.

9

Jesus was the prodigal son

by cellomould in

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perhaps this will not be printed in the wt anytime soon, but think about it.. look at the parallels between the behavior of the brother in the parable and the behavior of jesus' real siblings.. jesus was accused of associating with 'tax collectors and sinners'.. he once saved a woman from being stoned by an angry mob for 'adultery'.. he was also criticized for allowing a woman, probably of 'ill repute', to pour expensive oil over him and cry at his feet.. jesus was the prodigal son.... .

cell

mizpah

avengers:

Get thee to the dictionary...haha

Prodigal from Latin "prodigere" meaning to drive away, squander.

Prodigy from Latin "prodigium" meaning prophetic sign, marvel.

51

Jesus came in 1874 and then changed to 1914, no problem, per FDS

by garybuss in

prefatory note .

(to watch tower reprints wtb&ts 1919) .

the watch tower is unique among all the publications in the world.

mizpah

Garybus:

I don't believe that Seventhday Adventist teach the "invisible coming of Christ." When William Miller predicted Christ coming in 1844, many of his followers were disappointed and disillusioned. But some went back to the Bible to see where they went wrong. The Seventhday Adventists came to the conclusion that it was the "wrong event and the right time." Thus, they said that instead of Christ coming in 1844 that he was "tarrying in the heavens" preparing for a future coming on earth.

The SDAs still believe in a literal and visible coming of Christ in the future. But they do hold to Miller's date as the time of "tarrying" they still look forward to Christ's coming.

51

Jesus came in 1874 and then changed to 1914, no problem, per FDS

by garybuss in

prefatory note .

(to watch tower reprints wtb&ts 1919) .

the watch tower is unique among all the publications in the world.

mizpah

run don't walk:

According to Penton's Apocalypse Delayed, Russell had already formulated the idea of Christ's invisible presence in the heavens before meeting Barbour. Not only had he been influenced by the writings of Storrs and Stetson, but also by people like Joseph Seiss, a Lutheran pastor and editor of Prophetic Times. What Russell accepted from Barbour upon their meeting in 1876 was the prophetic "time line" that set 1874 as Christ's invisible coming. It fit nicely into Russell's prophetic chronology. Russell gave Barbour financial support and both published Three Worlds and the Harvest of this World. While Russell was heavily influenced by his association with Second Adventists, I have never read anything about him being influenced by the Seventhday Adventists. Garybus: Do you have any more information that would confirm this?

Rutherford, on the other hand, probably saw the error of Russell's calculations. Since many of the "Bible Students" were disappointed in the failure of Russell's predictions (and many left the organization at the time) Rutherford took the basic teachings of Russell (invisible "parousia") but placed them upon a different time sequence. Instead of 1914 being the final "end" he made it the date of Christ's coming in the heavens and the "beginning of the end." Armageddon was to be a near future event. Focus was taken away from Russell's failure by Rutherford's emphasis that the "ancient worthies" were to be resurrected on earth around 1925.