Posts by 7robert7

174

get a life -- 10 facts

by joelbear in

jw
friends

i thought it would be interesting for people to just post a few things about themselves so we can get to know each other just a bit.. try posting 10 facts about your life.. joel.

1. i was born and raised in south georgia.. 2. my favorite subject in school was math.. 3. i was in the fulltime service (bethel and pioneer) for 4 years.. 4. my favorite color is blue.. 5. mitch and i have been together over 12 years.. 6. we live in a suburb of atlanta georgia.. 7. we love to eat out and have friends over for dinner and board games.. 8. the only sport i was ever any good at is tennis.. 9. my favorite tv show of all time is the simpsons.. 10. we are both naturists and wish we could lay on the beach naked every day.

7robert7

1. Born in Visoko, in former Yugoslavia
2. 6', medium build, brown hair, green eyes
3. Left handed
4. Favorite movie presentley, The Body (Antonio Banderes)
5. Favorite color, Yellow
6. Two beautiful kids, and a hotty for a wife.
7. Job as a Robotics technician
8. Favorite animals cats and dogs.
9. Read a book a week.
10. Flavorless christian.

63

To All Here..... just a question....

by 7robert7 in

jw
friends

i'm just curious as to how many ex-witnesses here still believe in the god of the bible ?

and how many, due to the societies teachings have given up on god all together ?

7robert7

I'm just curious as to how many ex-witnesses here still believe in the God of the Bible ? And how many, due to the Societies teachings have given up on God all together ?

A Jews Perspective on the Trinity teaching....

by 7robert7 in

my hebrew teacher, ( a jewish rabbi) wrote this article a short time ago concerning the messianic jewish response to the christian trinity teaching.

i will add that my attending messianic services has helped me grow in christ.

and i'll ask you to forgive me now for not placing everything into paragraphs, due to my carpal tunnel, well i hope you'll understand.

7robert7

My Hebrew teacher, ( a jewish rabbi) wrote this article a short time ago concerning the Messianic Jewish response to the Christian Trinity teaching. I'm sure all the scholars here will find this interesting, especially the Jehovahs Witnesses that use this very verse as proof that Jesus is not God, and that their is only one. I will add that my attending Messianic services has helped me grow in Christ. And I'll ask you to forgive me now for not placing everything into paragraphs, due to my carpal tunnel, well I hope you'll understand. This was pasted as trying to type this out would have left me in tears.

In a recent question-and-answer article, Rabbi Stanley Greenberg of Temple Sinai in Philadelphia wrote:"Christians are, of course, entitled to believe in a trinitarian conception of God, but their effort to base this conception on the Hebrew Bible must fly in the face of the overwhelming testimony of that Bible. Hebrew Scriptures are clear and unequivocal on the oneness of God . . . The Hebrew Bible affirms the one God with unmistakable clarity. Monotheism, an uncompromising belief in one God, is the hallmark of the Hebrew Bible, the unwavering affirmation of Judaism and the unshakable faith of the Jew."Whether Christians are accused of being polytheists or tritheists or whether it is admitted that the Christian concept of the Tri-unity is a form of monotheism, one element always appears: one cannot believe in the Trinity and be Jewish. Even if what Christians believe is monotheistic, it still does not seem to be monotheistic enough to qualify as true Jewishness. Rabbi Greenberg's article tends to reflect that thinking.He went on to say, "...under no circumstances can a concept of a plurality of the Godhead or a trinity of the Godhead ever be based upon the Hebrew Bible." It is perhaps best then to begin with the very source of Jewish theology and the only means of testing it: the Hebrew Scriptures. Since so much relies on Hebrew language usage, then to the Hebrew we should turn. 1. God Is A PluralityThe Name Elohim It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending "im." The very word Elohim used of the true God in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," is also used in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods (Elohim) before Me," and in Deuteronomy 13:2, "...Iet us go after other gods (Elohim)..." While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead since it is the word that is used of the one true God as well as for the many false gods. Plural Verbs used with ElohimVirtually all Hebrew scholars do recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. Nevertheless, they wish to deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever. Their line of reasoning usually goes like this: When "Elohim" is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb. Rabbi Greenberg states it as follows:"But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is 'bara' which means 'he created'--singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God."The point made, of course, is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:Genesis 20:13: "And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander [literally: They caused me to wander] from my father's house... Genesis 35:7: "...because there God (Elohim) appeared unto him..." [Literally: They appeared unto him.]2 Samuel 7:23: "...God (Elohim) went..." [Literally: They went.]Psalm 58:12: "Surely He is God (Elohim) who judges...[Literally: They judge.]The Name EloahIf the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could have easily been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.Plural PronounsAnother case in point regarding Hebrew grammar is that often when God speaks of himself, he clearly uses the plural pronoun:Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said,"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...." He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the strength of this passage end comments as follows:"Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to this verse which says, "And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, "Master of the universe, why do you give herewith an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)." God answered Moses, "You write and whoever wants to err, let him err."1It is obvious that the Midrash Rabbah is trying to simply get around the problem and fails to answer adequately why God refers to Himself in the plural.The use of the plural pronoun can also be seen in:Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us..." Genesis 11:7: "Come, let Us go down, and there confuse their language..."Isaiah 6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"This last passage would appear contradictory with the singular "I" and the plural "us" except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).Plural Descriptions of GodOne point that also comes out of Hebrew is the fact that often nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:Ecclesiastes 12:1: "Remember now you creator..." [Literally: creators.]Psalm 149:2: "Let Israel rejoice in their Maker." [Literally: makers.]Joshua 24:19: "...holy God..." [Literally: holy Gods.]Isaiah 54:5: "For your Maker is your husband..." [Literally: makers, husbands.]Everything we have said so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.The ShemaDeuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!Deuteronomy 6:4, known as the Shema, has always been Israel's great confession. It is this verse more than any other that is used to affirm the fact that God is one and is often used to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. But is it a valid use of this verse?On one hand, it should be noted that the very words "our God" are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean "our Gods." However, the main argument lies in the word "one," which is a Hebrew word, echad. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute "one" but a compound "one." For instance, in Genesis 1:5, the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24, a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two "shall become one (echad) flesh." In Ezra 2:64, we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). The use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is yachid, which is found in many Scripture passages,2 the emphasis being on the meaning of "only." If Moses intended to teach God's absolute oneness as over against a compound unity, this would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of "yachid" and chose to use that word in his "Thirteen Articles of Faith" in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use "yachid" in reference to God.II. God Is At Least TwoElohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities As if to even make the case for plurality stronger, there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:7-8:"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You love righteousness and hate wickedness;Therefore God, Your God, has anointed YouWith the oil of gladness more than Your companions."It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.A second example is Hosea 1:7:"Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen."The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24 which reads:"Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens."Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:For thus says the LORD of Hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he that touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton3 and wrote:"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit."4 III. God Is ThreeHow Many Persons Are There?If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities in the Godhead exist? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures, we find that, in fact, three and only three distinct personalities are ever considered divine.1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it. 2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where He is found He is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH Himself. For instance, in Genesis 16:7 He is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH Himself. In Genesis 22:11 He is the Angel of YHVH, but God Himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given.5 A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God's own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God's own name is in this angel shows His divine status. 3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to as simply the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2, 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; Psalm 139:7; Isaiah 11:2, etc. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because He contains all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine. So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.The Three Personalities in the Same PassageNor have the Hebrew Scriptures neglected to put all three personalities of the Godhead together in one passage. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD has loved him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent me."It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of I and me and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse 7, the Angel of YHVH in verse 9 and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to Himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel's redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet, no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.ConclusionThe teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then, is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.If the concept of the Tri-unity in the Godhead is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when he said:"Behold, I send an Angel before you, to keep you in the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off."--Exodus 23:20-23New Testament LightIn keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: "...What is His name, and what is his Son's name, if you know?" His son's name is Y'shua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel. Furthermore, He is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament he is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Old and New Testaments relating to the Tri-unity of God. Footnotes1Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 1:26, New York: NOP Press, N.D. 2Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21; 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10 3"Personal Name of God of Israel," written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was "Adonai" ("the Lord"), itself later replaced by "ha-Shem" ("the Name"). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of "Adonai." -- Encyclopedic Dictionary of Judaica, p. 593 4Zohar, vol. III, 288, vol. II, 43, Hebrew editions. See also Soncino Press edition, vol. III, 134. 5In Genesis 31 he is the Angel of God in verse 11, but then he is the God of Bethel in verse 13. In Exodus 3 he is the Angel of YHVH in verse 2 and he is both YHVH and God in verse 4. In Judges 6 he is the Angel of YHVH in verses 11, 12, 20, and 21 but is YHVH himself in verses 14, 16, 22 and 23. Then in Judges 13:3 and 21 he is the Angel of YHVH but is referred to as God himself in verse 22.

9

Witness Murdered Doing Field Service!!!!!!

by 7robert7 in

jw
friends

i wanted to share a rather sickening and heart breaking story with everyone here.

a few months ago a young and pregnant jw mother was kidnapped by another women when showing the vehicle that her and her witness husband were selling.

the killer was another women who couldnt have children of her own,.

7robert7

I made it quite clear that some of what I heard was through insesant gossip, and I appreciate the corrections that were added. But inspite of what some may say here, we will never know how the murderer found out about Theresa. Some reports said the cars for sale ad, and some said at Walmart, one news station even said a friend of Theresa's met the killer before all this happened, but nothing more was said about this friend.

I as most was heart broken about this, especially for the child. That was my point in bringing her friend up, if that was true.

My next point is that I am married to a witness women, and am terribly afraid of what may happen to her some day, its odd that some here seem to still think that the door to door activity the Society pushes on its people is biblical.

I have a challenge for those that feel it is legit. Show me the verses that promote this type of field service. Give me an example of either Christ or his desciples doing this type of thing, in other words knocking on a total strangers house. In every case Christ and his desciples were invited, in every case, they went from church to church teaching believers. Remember, first to the jews and then to the gentiles.

Outnfree, inflammatory is a good way to describe my headline, and I appologize as I was very emmotional at the time, its been quite some time since this happened, and it still hurts me deeply when I think about it. Sorry to all.

By the way I live in Willowick, Ohio and if there are any close by that would like to get together some time and share how and why they got out I would greatley appreciate it. Your stories give me hope concerning my wife.

To those who are so adament in stating that THIS WAS NOT THROUGH FIELD SERVICE, I have one question.

Could Michelle Bica had met another pregnant JW women through field service, and befriended her? I say YES. So please dont even try to tell me that because it didnt happen through field service this time that it wont or cant happen in the future.

The Society is teaching a non biblical doctrine, that may very easily cost someone there life some day, I repeat NON BIBLICAL. I WILL NOT
allow my wife to become a sacrifice at the alter of the Watchtower, if you cant understand the love I have for my wife then so be it. God Bless.

9

Witness Murdered Doing Field Service!!!!!!

by 7robert7 in

jw
friends

i wanted to share a rather sickening and heart breaking story with everyone here.

a few months ago a young and pregnant jw mother was kidnapped by another women when showing the vehicle that her and her witness husband were selling.

the killer was another women who couldnt have children of her own,.

7robert7

I wanted to share a rather sickening and heart breaking story with everyone here. A few months ago a young and pregnant JW mother was kidnapped by another women when showing the vehicle that her and her witness husband were selling.

The killer was another women who couldnt have children of her own,
she took this sweet pregnant mother back to her home not 3 streets away and shot her in the head in her basement, then dragged the body into her garage and cut the child out of her stomache and then buried her in the garage. The child survived unscathed.

The murderess had for months been telling her husband, family and neighbors that she was pregnant and soon to deliver. I cant believe that she pulled the wool over the whole neighborhoods eyes. But it happened.

It turns out that another witness had come to the murderers house for the usual field service thing, and in her conversation had mentioned that there was another sister a few streets away that could help her if she had any questions concerning the society in the future and that this sister was soon to deliver a child.

This I found out through listening to the insesant gossip that goes on between my wife and others in the congregation, during there weekly get togethers at each others homes.

Guess what? None of the news media ever mentioned the fact that another witness had given the murderess her freinds adress during one of these "you must go door to door cuz Jehovah says so" encounters.

Born agains, have for years been trying to warn witnesses of the dangers involved in such door to door activity. And that all the verses they use to justify such activity have to do with church to church visits, and not visiting total strangers at their homes.

The apostles preached in outdoor ventures and only went to a non believers house if they were invited. Jesus never, entered a persons house to preach unless he was invited by the master of that home. People sought Jesus and His deciples out because of what they heard or had seen them do. Who would seek the witnesses out if they didnt come knocking on your door? No one, thats who.

I wouldnt be surprised if the Society placed this womens face on the front cover of a future Watchtower or Awake magazine, claiming that she made the ultimate sacrifice for Jehovah, as they did with the little children who sacrifised their lives for the sake of the Societies ban on blood. Shame on the Society, for their lies, but I truely believe that they will get theirs come judgement.

Imagine the suffering this poor women has to endure knowing that it was her shared information that cost her, her friends life. The neverending destruction continues. I pray that the field service issue ends, for many others may pay a dear price, for the Societies hunger for control and power.

20

Update on elders visit.......

by 7robert7 in

jw
friends

well as a few here know, and for those who dont i've had an ongoing study with a few of the elders from my wifes congregation.. i was quite suprised when one of the elders, i think the less experienced one asked the following question of me.. what is your purpose for getting together for this study, as it seems obvious to me that your not willing to be open minded concerning what we have to share with you today?.

i responded that his question really hurt my feelings, and that he shouldnt assume that i wasnt open to what they had to share, simply because i checked everything they shared with scripture.. i pointed out that the bereans did the same when paul preached.

i went on to explain that his statement made me feel as if it wasnt about my salvation that they were concerned about, but getting me to become a member of the orginization.. needless to say the older of the two stepped in and tried to dance his way out of this uncomfortable situation, by putting me at ease and trying to reassure me that my salvation was the subject, and not membership in the society.. they seemed to become uncomfortable everytime i used the word society, this i couldnt understand.

7robert7

I appreciate your comments COMF, and thank you, ozziepost, for clearing up the misunderstanding.

I did know about the March 1st issue, unfortunately I got the two issues and quotes confused being that they are very similar. Its easy to make a mistake when cramming as much information as possible before one of these encounters.

I would have admitted my wrong to the elders if they had been willing to come back, I'm not a pridefull man. I'll admit here and now that I made a terrible mistake that may have cost me further visits. But again one of the elders from last years visit wants to meet up again, so not all hope is lost.

Read what I said again COMF, what she realized I had done, was make a mistake, not that I had lied to her. Remeber, I didnt give the elders a page number, but had stated that the quote was on the front cover, thinking that I was using the right issue, I was wrong.

"This really threw her for a bit of a loop when she heard me mention the page number, because it finally hit her what I had done. She realized that the statement wasn’t on the cover, but that it was inside. She knows that I’ve never lied to her in 6 years of marriage, so she now knew that I was in fact telling the truth. She went to check anyways, to which I responded, “I wish you would spend as much time checking what you’re being taught by these strangers as you do your own husband.” J She was smiling too by the way."

Romans 3:5-8 fits the point that COMF is trying to make. And I appreciate his concern.

5: But if our unrighteousness brings out Gods righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us.

6: Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?

7: Someone might argue," If my falsehood enhances Gods truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?

8: Why not say-as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say-" Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

The Society from what I've been told teaches their people to lie, when it can gain an advantage, I'm told its called "theacratic war strategy." They believe that if the lie can bring glory to God, its o.k. As you can see, God doesnt agree.

I wouldnt use their own tactics. If anyone knows of any articles that exist concerning the issue of "theocratic war strategy" or "lyings o.k" let me know.

And one last thing COMF, it seems to me that whenever youve responded to the few things that I've said on this forum, your remarks come across as snide, haughty and judgemental. If I'm reading you incorrectley I truely appologize.

I remember in one of your other posts when responding to someones telling the witnesses at the door to bug off, that you treat them with love and understanding when they come to your door. Please show me the same, even if I havent walked in your shoes. In other words, be slow to accuse. You seem to focus on the negative way to much, most everyone else gave me the benefit of the doubt, and assumed that I had made a mistake, which was the correct assumption. "Stop, nitpicking every mistake you see in every post you read." It'll drive you crazy.

God Bless

20

Update on elders visit.......

by 7robert7 in

jw
friends

well as a few here know, and for those who dont i've had an ongoing study with a few of the elders from my wifes congregation.. i was quite suprised when one of the elders, i think the less experienced one asked the following question of me.. what is your purpose for getting together for this study, as it seems obvious to me that your not willing to be open minded concerning what we have to share with you today?.

i responded that his question really hurt my feelings, and that he shouldnt assume that i wasnt open to what they had to share, simply because i checked everything they shared with scripture.. i pointed out that the bereans did the same when paul preached.

i went on to explain that his statement made me feel as if it wasnt about my salvation that they were concerned about, but getting me to become a member of the orginization.. needless to say the older of the two stepped in and tried to dance his way out of this uncomfortable situation, by putting me at ease and trying to reassure me that my salvation was the subject, and not membership in the society.. they seemed to become uncomfortable everytime i used the word society, this i couldnt understand.

7robert7

You’re underestimating the holy spirits guidance qwerty. The issue I mentioned doesn’t exist, on the other hand the quote does.

In other words the quote wasn’t made on the front cover but on the inside of the issue within one of its articles.

The elders made it a point at the next meeting to let my wife know that I was being dishonest, and that the Society would never make a statement that placed itself before Jehovah as the key to ones salvation.

My wife came home and in a rather angry tone, accused me of lying. I asked her if the elders stated that the Society would never make such a statement, to which she responded yes. So that she couldn’t wiggle her way out of it, again I asked, “the elders said that the Society never made the following statement in any of its publications, the statement being,” Come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation.” To which she responded, I’m not a child Robert, yes, that statement was never made.

I then asked her to go to her kingdom hall library and to look up the following issue just to make sure. The issue is the Watchtower Magazine, November 15, 1981, pg. 21.

This really threw her for a bit of a loop when she heard me mention the page number, because it finally hit her what I had done. She realized that the statement wasn’t on the cover, but that it was inside. She knows that I’ve never lied to her in 6 years of marriage, so she now knew that I was in fact telling the truth. She went to check anyways, to which I responded, “I wish you would spend as much time checking what you’re being taught by these strangers as you do your own husband.” J She was smiling too by the way.

Well to cut it short, she checked it, found it, and read it. She asked one of the two elders to check the article because it looked to her as if they were the ones who had made the mistake, by stating that the Society would never make such a statement (you go girl), to which he responded with a question,” Why, your not doubting us are you. ?” Conveniently, the elder got called away before she could answer his question, she felt that the other one was listening in to their conversation and stepped in to avoid a bad situation.

Bad situation for whom, one might ask?

I’ll keep everyone posted on the unfolding drama at hand, until then keep my wife Dana, and her mother and father John and Nancy Seifert in prayer. God Bless.

Oh, and by the way, thanks to all for the encouragement.

1

Jonah's problem

by terraly in

jw
friends

ok, so call me sadistic- but i popped over to www.watchtower.org, just to see what important, relevant issues they're advising their internet viewers about.

"the enchanting hue of koryo celadon" didn't hold my attention for long though, so i was randomly clicking through stuff and i came across this wonderful little gem under and article entitled, "why you trust the bible's prophecy" or some such:.

http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1999/7/15/article_02.htm.

7robert7

If you read the book of Jonah, youll notice that Jonah was simply repeating what Jehovah God had TOLD him to say. The words he spoke were not his own, therefore he was not responsable for the prophesy, it didnt come from him but from Jehovah directly.

The key to this whole situation is that neither Jonah nor Jehovah made a MISTAKE by sending the warning. The key is to be found in Jeremiah 18:7,8, Jeremiah states:

7. If at any time I (Jehovah) announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, (and here is the key of knowledge in verse 8)

8. and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

This is similar to a clause in a contract, or in laymans terms a way out of the contract. Always check the clause in a contract before accusing one of being a false prophet.

The Watchtower never seems to tell the whole story in there lessons, do they?

20

Update on elders visit.......

by 7robert7 in

jw
friends

well as a few here know, and for those who dont i've had an ongoing study with a few of the elders from my wifes congregation.. i was quite suprised when one of the elders, i think the less experienced one asked the following question of me.. what is your purpose for getting together for this study, as it seems obvious to me that your not willing to be open minded concerning what we have to share with you today?.

i responded that his question really hurt my feelings, and that he shouldnt assume that i wasnt open to what they had to share, simply because i checked everything they shared with scripture.. i pointed out that the bereans did the same when paul preached.

i went on to explain that his statement made me feel as if it wasnt about my salvation that they were concerned about, but getting me to become a member of the orginization.. needless to say the older of the two stepped in and tried to dance his way out of this uncomfortable situation, by putting me at ease and trying to reassure me that my salvation was the subject, and not membership in the society.. they seemed to become uncomfortable everytime i used the word society, this i couldnt understand.

7robert7

Well as a few here know, and for those who dont I've had an ongoing study with a few of the elders from my wifes congregation.

I was quite suprised when one of the elders, I think the less experienced one asked the following question of me.

What is your purpose for getting together for this study, as it seems obvious to me that your not willing to be open minded concerning what we have to share with you today?

I responded that his question really hurt my feelings, and that he shouldnt assume that I wasnt open to what they had to share, simply because I checked everything they shared with scripture.

I pointed out that the Bereans did the same when Paul preached. I went on to explain that his statement made me feel as if it wasnt about my salvation that they were concerned about, but getting me to become a member of the orginization.

Needless to say the older of the two stepped in and tried to dance his way out of this uncomfortable situation, by putting me at ease and trying to reassure me that my salvation was the subject, and not membership in the Society.

They seemed to become uncomfortable everytime I used the word Society, this I couldnt understand. They accused me of having a facination with the Society when they claimed it was about Jehovah.

I asked them why one of the Watchtowers proclaimed on its front cover "Come to Jehovahs Orginization for Salvation" when Christ said come to me.

I asked them if that sounded a bit like the Society was placing the creation before the Creator, to which they responded, "I've never seen that issue. I gave them the information, and asked them to verify wether or not this issue existed.

I went on to ask them why the Society taught that they needed to be members of the Watchtower Society or be annihilated when their own founder warned against allowing anyone to bind your thoughts, and that there was no orginization in existance that could claim to be Gods Orginization, he made this reference concerning the Catholic church and the papacy. Now the Society was following in the Catholic churches foot steps. Boy they didnt like that one.

Again the eldest of the two stated that CT Russel was a prolific writer, who consistantly preached the importance of orginization, and that I had to be mistaken. Again I provided the information, with the idea that they would verify this.

That was two weeks ago, and I havent heard from them since, its really kind of sad though, they both seemed to be wonderful people, confused, but none the less good people.

My wife again showed surprise that her "confused" as she calls me husband gave another set of elders a tough time. She also found the long moments of silence and looks of cofusion on there faces alittle haunting. She felt that they would walk all over me, what she doesnt understand though is that I had help. Thank you Father.

I really hope that they stay in touch, one good thing came out of this. One of the elders from a prior study wants to get together, he explained to my wife, " I dont know why Dana, but their is something about your husband that I really like." I pray that what it is, is the Jesus in me. God Bless.

31

I want to know more about you. REALLY!

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

i so desire to know more about the people i am listening to, and occasionally talking to.

aol has profiles.

some other web sites have them.

7robert7

Intense love describes what I feel for those caught on the inside, starting with my wife. She hasnt been baptized as of yet so I hope there is still time.

When one finally sees Gods true message of love, (not the societies version of it), it overwhelms you.

There are nights where I just cant sleep, thinking of all these wonderful people, and yes I have met some truely sweet people through my wifes Kingdom Hall, that deserves so much more then what the society allows them to have.

The Kingdom of Heaven is open to all, not some, but all. I was never a witness, but have seen some of the damage that families that I've known over the years, had suffered at the hands of the orginization.

Imagine knowing that what is being spoken is not of God, but having to bite your tongue out of love and respect for your wife and her family.

Jesus Christ scolded the Pharisees for "shutting the doors of heaven to others, when in fact they themselves were the ones who wouldnt enter." Could it be any more clear that the Society is emulating the very religious leaders that Jesus warned us against.

Anyways, here my bios:
Hair:Brown
Eyes:Piercing Blue
Height:6'
Weight:165
Age:30's
Status: Married, and still deeply and romantically in love after 7 years.
Fav music: Rap, classical, Celtic, Blues, Soul, Gospel, R&B, and techno.
Fav food:Chinese
Fav season: Desert summers
My true loves: Jesus, my wife, my kids, total strangers, in that order.
Faith: Born again, and walking in the spirit.
Residence: Willowick, Ohio.
Fav Books: Anything by C.S Lewis of The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe fame. Or maybe Narnia rings a bell. These are the most fantastic books ever.

I pray that your transitions out of the Society are smooth and trouble free. And if you ever need to talk, or need encouragement please write me, so that I can cry with you and share in your pain.

Intense love is awesome, you'll know you have it when ya start crying for no obvious reason, and of course they will be tears of joy.

Boy do I sound corny or what? Especially for a guy.