Posts by Seeker4

10

Where Are We At Precisely?

by Celtic in

jw
friends

can anyone define clearly where exactly we are at in our various campaigning activities against the wtbts from an overall sociological perspective?.

is it the case, that presently under current tactics, we are not doing all that we could be doing to get the society to change their direction upon certain key issues?

i'm not knocking the worthwhile jobs that many are doing, i'm just questioning the effectiveness of current rating of status quo.. what more could we be doing as a body of campaigners?

Seeker4

Sorry. I don't believe that in any way are you going to get the WTS to "adjust its organizational views." Hasn't happened and won't happen.

What can be done? What Silentlambs and a few others have done - get the word out into the media about what the WTS is really like. Websites like Randy's and several others provide places for people investigating the Witnesses to find a wealth of source material. Discussion boards like this give folks an arena in which to vent and to express themselves as they heal after leaving the WTS.

Organizing large demonstrations would also garner a good bit of publicity.

But none of this will result in any real organizational changes. The best scenario for the WTS is that it will die a long, slow death from lack of growth. Many current Witnesses will remain such. The majority of active friends are clueless about the pedophilia problem, the UN/NGO, blood and organizational changes. Probably not one in a hundred Witnesses that I know of has ANY idea that these things are going on.

Inform the world about the WTS - and don't worry about creating change in the Org. Ain't going to happen.
S4

23

NT Only for the 144,000?

by ItsJustMe in

jw
friends

is the lightbulb that just clicked over my head correct?

does the society teach that the entire new testament is written only to the 144,000?.

____________________________________________

Seeker4

Yardif, Rev Bill, etc;

Good to see the old biblical nonsense being tossed around again. Sucn an amazing book, able to fuel useless theology and mindless speculation for generation after generation for thousands of years.

And this quote: "NT is primarily but not only written to the saints. They will go to heaven, while the billions will be resurrected on earth. That's the biblical truth and satan hides that truth to make God look bad. God takes care of us all, ie. all that want him."

Sums things up rather nicely. Ah those "biblical truths" that satan hides. What a powerless god you guys worship!! You sure you want to be in heaven with such a useless spirit? He doesn't seem to be doing too well taking "care of us all." Doesn't do too well looking after himself, either.

S4

11

Your thoughts on this letter please.

by sleepy in

jw
friends

here is an excerpt from a letter from the society.. jehovah has endowed us with free will.

as such he has implanted in us the faculty of choice.

he does not force us to act or think in a certain way, nor does he employ his sevants to do so ( 2 cor 3:17).

Seeker4

WTS circular reasoning.

Question any teachings unless they come from Jehovah's true source.
Jehovah's true source is the faithful and discreet slave.
The WTS that f&ds.
How do we know that?
We say we are, and we are the f&ds, so it must be true and unquestionable.

It only makes sense if you're inside that circle. Once you step out of it, the whole thing becomes absurd, and you wonder how anyone can believe it.

S4

23

NT Only for the 144,000?

by ItsJustMe in

jw
friends

is the lightbulb that just clicked over my head correct?

does the society teach that the entire new testament is written only to the 144,000?.

____________________________________________

Seeker4

You got it. The NT is a "personal letter" to any of the anointed, according to JW-think. The problem with that is that in practice, any anointed outside of Bethel has much, much less to say about what the NT teaches than some 35-year-old non-anointed brother working in the Writing or Service departments.

So, we have a situation where reality belies the WTS claims. The "food at the proper time" supposedly coming from the F&DS - anointed ones - is something quite different. We have 8,000 or so anointed around the world in reality receiving their spiritual food from members of the Great Crowd. If these anointed ones had a question and wrote to the Society about it, the answer would very, very likely come from a non-anointed brother.

Just one more reason why I came to see WTS theology as nonsense.
S4

11

Creationist Red Herrings

by Abaddon in

jw
friends

everytime i hear someone say anything about how there are 'no transitional fossils' (fish-amphibians, amphibians-reptiles etc.

), i generally ignore it.. why?

because if they say that, it tends to indicate the person saying it has restricted their research to pro-creation sites that generally repeat one of the classic fifty or so creationist arguements.

Seeker4

Abaddon,

The Talk Origins site was a huge factor in my leaving the Witnesses, along with the writings of Alan F. and a few other X-JWs.

Your comment reminded me of a discussion I had with a CO as I was leaving. He said that Carey Barber of the Gov Body had said in a talk one time that all the fossil evidence for evolution would fit in a coffin. To the CO, this was just a wonderfully profound concept from a spiritual giant. I told him and the elder with him that it was totally false, that there were millions of pieces of evidence. I also said that I'd interviewed Barber on an assembly program, and talked to him privately, and that this was a guy with limited education and no scientific background at all.

But I think the experience is indicative of Witness thinking in general - if it comes from the GB, it has to be so.

Look forward to your research results.
S4

11

Claims by Jehovah's Witnesses

by joelbear in

jw
friends

jehovahs witnesses claim to be happier than non-jehovah's witnesses.. jehovah's witnesses claim to be happier because they live in a spiritual paradise where everyone is more loving and more moral.. one of the reasons i left is very simply because i found these two claims to be false.. i disproved them by one simple action; getting to know non-jehovah's witnesses.

the more i did this, the more i found that happiness and kindness were traits that were not associated with any particular religious, social, business, ethnic or political group.

happiness and kindness instead were associated with very individual qualities: self confidence, good naturedness, humility, generosity of spirit and patience, among others.. i continue to try to apply these traits to my life and study those around me who display these traits.

Seeker4

Exactly so, Joel. Found out the same things myself. Wonderful folks and silly jerks abound everywhere. The Watchtower "spiritual paradise" is just a sorry figment of someone's imagination. The reality of Watchtower World is a far cry from any kind of paradise.

Thanks for the thoughts.
S4

35

Mistakes Admitted by WTS?

by Marvin Shilmer in

jw
friends

mistakes admitted by wts?

i seek feedback on the following series of questions:.

1. has the watchtower society publicly admitted its mistakes?

Seeker4

It has been consistent WTS policy since I was baptized in the early 1960's to mostly ignore mistakes and changes. Years later these problems may be discussed in a white-washed way from the safety of the distance of time. Frequently the Yearbooks will talk a bit more openly about things that have happened, but always LONG after the fact.

I will give you a current example. The "generation" change in 1994-95 was a HUGE doctrinal and teaching change. It was presented, of course, as new light from Jehovah. BUT, it caused serious problems. My feeling for some time is that overall growth stopped at that time, and things have been slowing down ever since. I know I was one of many influential elders and former elders who walked away at that time.

I also know from excellent sources that the WTS received more mail on that issue than on any other in its history. And the result has been?

NOTHING. They remain essentially completely silent on that change and the effects it continues to have. As Ray Franz made clear about 1975, the Society's policy has consistently been to IGNORE these problems in the hopes that they will fade from the minds of the rank and file JWs.

I think that approach may have been much more successful before the advent of the Internet. Of course, that will not prevent the Society from continuing to use it.

S4

36

Some things that annoy me about the WTS

by Leander in

jw
friends

i'm still currently a jw myself and i'm serving as a minsterial servant in a limited capacity.

(a few weeks ago i was vocal about the doubts i've had and the elders made the decision to allow me to stay on as a ms but without giving talks) .

1. recently as in the last few years i've been paying more attention to the various members in the congregation and i've observed some interesting things.

Seeker4

Leander (and Troubled),

You folks remind me of where I was about five years ago. I had been an MS or elder for 25 years or so. Stepped down in the early '90's, and found myself wondering about all the things you've brought up.

The dress, grooming, music, sex, prophecy stuff just repeats over and over. As you were told, every new music is condemned by the Society, only to find the position relaxing as the music becomes more mainstream and accepted. All the comments about being counseled for a too short haircut, a too loose suit, ANYTHING new, brought back lots of memories. Such attempts at control and conformity. I used to tell the brothers in my talks that one of the saddest aspects of the organization was the constant confusion between conformity and unity.

I also struggled for some time with reconciling what I saw with what I knew the Truth should be like. I too hoped for reform, and was encouraged to write to the Society to help make changes. But I had been enough of an insider to know that things were not going to change, and what happened to people who tried to make a change.

It may seem impossible now (it certainly did to me for years), but there is no way you are going to remain JWs. You are not going to see change or reform or a closer conformity to the truth. You may find, as I did, that some specific thing will come along and force you to make the decision to get out. With me it was the generation change in the mid-90's. That was such a blatant cover-up move on the WTS's part that it simply made me sick. It took a few more years for me to get out, but I haven't been to a KH except perhaps two times in the last three years. I just walked away, and very few regrets.

ALL of the things you wrote about bothered me as well. This is not going to become any easier. These things won't change for the better. I agree that you should move slowly and thoughtfully, but I think I can tell you without any doubts on my part that you are on your way out of the Witnesses.

Welcome - it's a great big wonderful world out here - despite the WTS's dire warnings to the contrary. You'll love it!!

S4

4

Jehovah will destroy you.

by Yerusalyim in

jw
friends

my wife told me an amuzing and yet sad story about my step son, sean.

when he was three, in preschool, and already reading due to hyperlexia (part of his autism) he got into a spat with his preschool teacher.

it seems sean was acting out in class so the teacher sent him to stand in the corner for a bit.

Seeker4

I remember a family that was pretty black and white in their thinking. Their small son told his grandparents, while riding down the street in our village, about how Jehovah was going to destroy the beautiful church they happened to be driving by, and how Jehovah hates other religions, etc.

Those grandparents NEVER showed any interest in the Witnesses, and I think were really put off by the child's comments. The child today is grown, and also no longer a JW.

S4

13

Evolution-bias(exposed)

by moman in

jw
friends

why haz this debate on (evolution v/s creation) stil lively & well after all these years, when,it iz impossible to prove either case?.

posters like (jan) exibit lots of arrogance & name calling when challanged, why?.

my theory: people that have been involved in some religion (like the borg),after finding out they have been deceived swing their scale too far to the opposite side in a typical "overaction!

Seeker4

Moman,

I think it was Jan who made pretty clear the DNA proof of the common ancestry of men and apes. I know that some said in that thread that they could come up with other explanations for that information. But ideas and explanations that are simply pulled out of thin air are really meaningless without any corroborating evidence.

I was reminded of a couple of discussions I had with the elders before leaving the Witnesses. I told them about the evidence that shows without question that a worldwide flood 4000 years ago was an impossiblity. They simply said, in typical Watchtower fashion, that they could give other explanations for this evidence, ones that jived with their beliefs. I told them that their thinking made no sense - that coming up with hypothetical "well this could have happened" with no evidence was essentially worthless speculation.

If evolution has no basis in fact, try to find a reputable university anywhere in the world where the sciences are taught without reference to evolution. Evolution is simply an accepted scientific fact in labs the world over - whether for education or business or research. And again - it has nothing to do with a belief in a creator.

I happen not to believe in a God. I would love to be proven wrong. The one thing I am certain of is that if there is a God, he's nothing like the mythological Jehovah I worshipped for 35 years of my life. I just hope if there is a god out there, he/she/it has a goddamn good explanation for things, cause the one's I've heard so far sure suck!!

S4