Creationist Red Herrings

Abaddon

Everytime I hear someone say anything about how there are 'no transitional fossils' (fish-amphibians, amphibians-reptiles etc.), I generally ignore it.

Why? Because if they say that, it tends to indicate the person saying it has restricted their research to pro-creation sites that generally repeat one of the classic fifty or so creationist arguements. This in turn tends to indicate that they might not have a great deal of science knowledge.

In such a ccircumstance, if one launched into a passionate discussion on the huge number of transitional fossils in great detail, one would probably not impart any useful information, as they would just be overwhelmed by the data, possibly confused by the vocabulary, and probably just let the data go over their head without adjusting their opinion.

However, I wouldn't want anyone to think that this oft-repeated point-of-view was remotely true.

So, here's a jolly good websire with enough data of transitional fossils to choke a horse. I hope my creationist friends out there will enjoy it...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

I am currently compiling (from Creationist sites) a list of fifty or so arguements against Evolution. I am matching them with an evolutionist's response to these arguements. Some of them (arguements against Evolution) are quite funny (especially the New Earther's!!), so expect a few posts before I stick the list on the web somewhere. I realise there are similar resources available, but I like to keep up-to-date...

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

Julie

Hi Abaddon,

:I am currently compiling (from Creationist sites) a list of fifty or so arguements against Evolution. I am matching them with an evolutionist's response to these arguements.

I look forward to seeing this. Thanks for doing it (in advance)

Julie

Seeker4

Abaddon,

The Talk Origins site was a huge factor in my leaving the Witnesses, along with the writings of Alan F. and a few other X-JWs.

Your comment reminded me of a discussion I had with a CO as I was leaving. He said that Carey Barber of the Gov Body had said in a talk one time that all the fossil evidence for evolution would fit in a coffin. To the CO, this was just a wonderfully profound concept from a spiritual giant. I told him and the elder with him that it was totally false, that there were millions of pieces of evidence. I also said that I'd interviewed Barber on an assembly program, and talked to him privately, and that this was a guy with limited education and no scientific background at all.

But I think the experience is indicative of Witness thinking in general - if it comes from the GB, it has to be so.

Look forward to your research results.
S4

RunningMan

Barber's comment about the coffin really indicates his lack of education.
It isn't even original. I have heard that comment from other creationists.
He just copied it. But, JW's have not read enough to know even that much.

D wiltshire

Abb,

Thanks for the site refference I will give it a look.
I'm not what you could term a "creationist" but would be intrerested looking at your 50/50.
Will you ramdomly be choosing the 50 creationist veiws or will you just be looking for their weakest points?
Reguardless I'm sure you will do a good job.
I too have seen some pretty absurd stuff from creationist.

To be fair there are many who beleive in a creator but don't accept creationist reasons for a basis of their beleif.
I think you will be able to make them look very silly.

If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?

Commie Chris

This subject interested me a great deal when I was a JW. I really wanted to believe that the WT was right about creationism, but I could never accept it without looking at both sides of the issue for myself. I read several books, including:

Science and Creationism, ed. Ashley Montagu (Oxford Books)
Scientists Confront Creationism, ed. Laurie Godfrey (Norton)
Science on Trial, The Case for Evolution, by Douglas Futuyama (Pantheon Books)

I eventually became convinced that evolution is a fact, but I could personally reconcile evolution with the existence of a creator god. What was disturbing, however, was the hostility of the elders to any personal research on my part on this subject. I was repeatedly warned that I was being influenced by demons and I was labelled "bad association" because I refused to accept the WT dogma which was clearly contradicted by overwhelming evidence.

Unclepenn1

>This in turn tends to indicate that they might not have a great deal of science knowledge.

Dar! Um, duh, OK I will just take your word for it. I'm not too bright ya know!

Penn

ianao

'Man will believe anything he desires to be true.' -Me

Rex B13

Hi Abaddon,
What you will find in your research is exactly what you WANT to believe. You are not a scientist, your study will be unscientific and it will reflect your bias.
I too have studied 'talk origins' and 'alan f.', with their much proclaimed (by the atheistic ones) research and have seen the overwhelming evidence for evolution as a 'fact'. Then, studying several other points of view, I discovered that the arguments to refute evolution are shaking this theory to the core.
It's a 'wash' and you end up with your whatever your 'world view' dictates. Pay careful attention to this; 'micro' evolution is one thing and it is supported by creationists and evolutionists. It is 'macro' evolution that is disputed, and it's many facets you have to take on faith or assumptions.
Did you know that much of the Russian and eastern scientific community has critisized the western scientist's almost religious faith in the thery. They don't see where the many theories in evolution are a fact by any stretch of the imagination!
The development of complicated structures and organs like the eye are particularly based on whimsy and fantasy, the outright ignoring of evidence and redating of fossils because they don't 'fit in' is appalling. The elaborate drawings of actual creatures from a few bones that may or may not be common is a real 'hoot'.
The 'prehistoric man' in the famous Scopes trial was actually a fantasy based on one tooth, and it turned out to be a pig's tooth! LOL
They drew a complete ape looking man in the textbooks!
Have fun.
Rex

Abaddon

I completely missed some of these replies, sorry...

Nice point about the bones in a coffin, I'd heard the same lie. Haven't got past No.12 as I've had a busy week at work and spent far too much time here. I 've also been thinking about forming a club online where we can bitch about morons. The morons would be allowed to join too, but could hardly complain if they got offended. And booting would occur ONLY if someone was boring. Just like a decent party.

I've actually set it up at Yahoo!, but haven't had time to do anything to it yet.

unclepenn; don't be an ass. There is a difference between a person's intelligence and a person's education. I have known very intelligent people without good educations. I've also known well educated fools. You want to deliberately distort what I say, go ahead. I think most people are intelligent enough to see that for what it is.

Rex; oh, please. Didn't you run away from the last evolution discussion? And the last discussion about the existence of god? Why don't you post something concrete, you have this huge amount of evidence, give us URL's or abstracts of material not available online. If you don't, you're a liar, and who's your Daddy then?

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

Creationist Red Herrings

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