That's a fair point SBF. You are right that there are ways of mandating against high control, prejudicial behaviours that run contrary to progressive, inclusive and respectful values. You are right as well that practising such things runs contrary to the idea of charitable works therefore the stick of charitable recognition seems a suitable tool to wield.
konceptual99
JoinedPosts by konceptual99
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So, how's it feel, Watchtower -- now that the shoe's on the other foot?
by FatFreek 2005 inyes, your cult has been banned in russia.
what surprises me is that this hasn't happened in more countries.
what surprises me is that civil suits in the u.s. haven't flooded the courts -- violation of civil and human rights because of the cruel act of shunning of disfellowshipped ones, even members of one's own family.. discrimination is a form of cruelty and civil and human rights define such.
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8,000 Filipino Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia?
by OrphanCrow inpinoy jehovah’s witnesses in russia face deportation.
philippine daily inquirer / 05:40 am february 24, 2017. baguio city—jehovah’s witnesses (jw) in the philippines have asked the department of foreign affairs (dfa) to intercede on behalf of filipinos who face arrest or deportation in russia for belonging to their faith.. the watchtower bible and tract society of the philippines, the legal and corporate arm of jw, made the appeal when it met dfa officials this week on behalf of more than 8,000 filipino jehovah’s witnesses in russia.. read more: http://globalnation.inquirer.net/152841/pinoy-jehovahs-witnesses-russia-face-deportation#ixzz4f8s5kznb .
there are 8000 filipino jehovah's witnesses in russia?
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konceptual99
There is the wt's problem, and the reason for their reaction, WT meetings are not really worship ( some songs may be), but sales training / indoctrination seminars.
And when they turn into proper discussions of the Bible that's when people start to figure out TTATT...
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So, how's it feel, Watchtower -- now that the shoe's on the other foot?
by FatFreek 2005 inyes, your cult has been banned in russia.
what surprises me is that this hasn't happened in more countries.
what surprises me is that civil suits in the u.s. haven't flooded the courts -- violation of civil and human rights because of the cruel act of shunning of disfellowshipped ones, even members of one's own family.. discrimination is a form of cruelty and civil and human rights define such.
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konceptual99
Shunning is a horrendously stone age way of trying to control and influence others but the law will never make it illegal. You can't force people to talk to others.
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konceptual99
I get 100% where you are coming from. I just question if their thought crimes are sufficient to warrant being banned in the circumstances they have been in Russia. I would also say that their most harmful practices can be tackled in ways that I think would be far more effective in forcing change and exposing more inside the organisation to some critical thinking.
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konceptual99
Some extremists let their children die when they really need a blood transfusion.
This of course is true. So, if some Muslims blow people up does that mean Islam should be banned and all religious activities of Muslim people become illegal?
They may not get involved in politics but they believe that their God will soon destroy all politicians and political organisations (please can somebody tell me how this belief isn't extreme).
Again, this is true but is frankly an empty threat. It's a fairy tale and Witnesses do nothing other than stand like impotent morons next to carts to promote it. If if ever motivated violent behaviour then I would be the first to shout "ban".
They believe their God will also destroy all the billions of people who reject their message.
Again, an empty threat. They do nothing of substance as a result of this. Many people hold beliefs that are not progressive and inclusive. They need to stop being ignorant but this type of nonsense infects millions and millions of people.
If they live in a non-mandatory reporting state and one of their children is sexually abused, they won't report it or cooperate with the police.
Historically this is true but I do think that this is changing. Not fast enough of course but there are plenty of ways to make the WTS face up to their responsibilities here without abusing the law and undermining the principle of freedom of speech and of religion.
The Russian action has brought up some really serious points but do the ends justify the means?
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konceptual99
I really don't think it's clear cut. There are certainly aspects of the religion that are harmful and have damaged people and led to the people dying, specifically shunning, protection of the organisation's name over protection of the person, blood transfusions. I fully sympathise with every victim of these serious and morally reprehensible actions and would never wish to minimise the impact that every case of this has had on those concerned.
It is true that these are harmful aspects of the religion, and can easily be framed as extreme beliefs, but the social exclusion, passive aggressive behaviour and holding a belief that you are prepared to die for are hardly unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. Are they extreme in the sense of wanting to secure their agenda through violent actions? No, even if you accept that their view of Bible does promote God doing just that.
On a day to day basis Witness pose no threat to their neighbours. It's the relative minority of cases where families are caustically split through shunning and even more of a minority that have seen a relative die as a direct result of the blood policy. In wider society, family upset and discord affects many, many people and people follow all sorts of behaviour that is harmful to themselves and their kids (e.g. smoking, obesity). Again, I don't wish to minimise the harm but just try and contextualise it.
The problem with the way this has been spun in Russia is that it is all part of a wider agenda that the government has to recreate the oppressive culture that was a hallmark of the days of communism. When the same arguments are used to oppress gay people, other religious minorities and those who speak out against Putin then I find it really difficult to find much to be pleased about with this ban.
Of course it's great that the WTS is being dealt a blow but did being banned in the past prevent people from joining? No. The WTS is unlikely to decline through the suppression of it's activities but can be undermined through education. The more people are educated into not accepting religious dogma, researching their beliefs and able to access resources that give them the whole story then the less hold the WTS society will have on their minds.
So I don't have an argument in principle with the view that the WTS is extreme but consider this to be relative. I don't support the abuse of Russian law to undermine freedom of speech but I would happily support the WTS being pulled up over it's tax free status and it's lack of a progressive child protection policy for example.
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Apostate carts
by Normalfulla inso i've recently been travelling about usa and mexico and of course seen the carts parked at tourist spots all over and i had a funny thought ...if somehow we could get a bunch of identical carts together and print up a placard with a few key facts about the real truth with jwfacts logo and just park them right in the same areas ,dress up in our old meeting clothes and stand about with a coffee and look on our phones i wonder what response we would get from anyone ?
or park them outside assembly's and just stand.off at a distance ...basically the same thing they do to all society !.
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konceptual99
Slight aside but did anyone in the UK watch Peter Kay's Car Share and see the cart featured in that in a couple of shots?
It was being ignored btw.
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Voting
by confused inhi guys,.
i have been told that a while ago there was a watchtower article that said that voting, (i'm in uk) is down to individual conscience.
i always thought it was a judicial matter.
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konceptual99
Are there any ex (or current for that matter) elders on here who can confirm if they have viewed someone who has voted in a non-mandatory election as DA'ed by their actions and announced this to the congregation?
The WT99 makes no mention of this sanction and seems to suggest it is conscience matter which cannot be interfered with.
Of course the instructions to elders regarding political neutrality could trump this but I've always understood this to refer more to things like running for office or joining the military.
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JW news release and deception - The "High-Profile Case" in Russia
by jwleaks ini found this interesting bit of news release propaganda by the jws on their website dated april 5, 2017.. "russia's supreme court begins high-profile case against jehovah's witnesses".
https://www.jw.org/en/news/releases/by-region/russia/supreme-court-begins-case-against-jehovahs-witnesses/.
my interest was piqued by the jw claim that the court hearing is a "high-profile case".
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konceptual99
BBC Radio has been reporting the ban having been enacted. The admin centre (Bethel) is to be closed.
EDIT - oops just seen the other thread
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Sudden General Election in UK to be held June 8th 2017
by freddo intheresa may the british p.m. has called for an election.. the house of commons has to vote tomorrow and have a two-thirds majority to agree and the main opposition parties want it to happen too so it looks pretty certain to go ahead..
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konceptual99
Corbyn is popular. It's just that it's only amongst enough of his own party to ensure he can be voted leader. Twice.
This country's politics are seriously screwed. I want to see credible opposition to the Tories. I want to see May held to account for whatever the Brexit deal ends up being. I want to see them held to account for the cuts to social care and the welfare state, especially mental health care. This is what Corbyn speaks yet cannot manage to translate into a message that engages with the enough of the UK population to be considered in the least bit credible.
The Liberals are no less of a joke. They paid the price for allowing Cameron to screw them right up the arse in return for a seat at the table and may never recover.
UKIP have been a nice middle ground for white, working class traditional Labour voters to migrate to the Tories on the back of fears of immigration and perceived loss of sovereignty.
This election will be a landslide for the Tories (except in Scotland and Wales). Labour will remain a nonsense and the Liberals back to being a squeaky noise on the side just like in the Spitting Image days.
May has made a sensible and tactical decision that secures the Tories in power for at least another 5 years and probably another 5-10 past that. Not only that, they will have no serious opposition for years to come. And that's a joke.