As many have said, they are both. It's just a case of where on the line between two extremities they sit. They are not the most extreme but in some ways that is worse than if they were an all out stereotypical cult. At the moment they can present a veneer of acceptability, point to having millions of members, not being obviously segregated or separated from mainstream living. Don't let that fool you - it's high control cultism.
konceptual99
JoinedPosts by konceptual99
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49
How do you categorise the Society - Cult or High control religion
by UnshackleTheChains ini have often seen many categorise the organisation in different ways.
some say cult, some say high control religion.
cult or high control religion?.
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Cutbacks
by pepperheart inwhat other cut backs do you think will be coming or might be coming these next few years for the borg ?.
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konceptual99
They are already cutting back the living conditions for Bethelites in third world countries. I was talking to a brother I know in the WDC and he was saying about the fact that Bethels have always had good first world living standards. They were finding that many were coming to Bethel as a route to escape poverty at home.
As part of the cutbacks they are limiting the standards of living for accommodation to that which would be considered good by local standards. This would reduce things like AC, number of rooms, people in rooms, quality of building etc. This reduces costs during design and build as well as in-life.
Of course, there are many existing buildings which already have a good standard of fit-out but remember that they are reducing branch facilities and concentrating on Remote Translation Offices. These projects involve far smaller buildings and since they are only used by locals can have more basic fit-outs than facilities where visiting dignities from HQ need to be accommodated.
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Goal: To digitize all WT statistical data
by ILoveTTATT2 ini have the goal of digitizing all wt statistical data, as much as possible, as far back as possible.user 88jm.
i recently did 1980 and i had a friend help me with 1979 and 1978.. do we have any volunteers to help me with previous years??.
it's a lot of work, but if you know excel you can make some macros that will speed up the work..
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konceptual99
What's the process? How long does it take? Do you have to type in individual figures or proof read tables that have been OCRed?
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JW.org as a Prank Tool
by schnell inthe moment i saw the "request a study" form on the site, i thought, "umm, that could be a bad thing.".
but to date, i have heard of only one case where it was used for less than genuine purposes.
that was in the case of a "game developer" who was selling crappy asset-flips on steam.
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konceptual99
If prayers really work to attract Witnesses to your door, why does the Borg need a website function that's so prone to fraud?
Because 99.99% of the world's population does not even know this feature exists let alone care about using it to send a couple of dubs on a wild goose chase.
It would be quite fun if it got some viral traction though...
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Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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konceptual99
I had told Elders, COs and other people that I would rather not say. I told some family members and chose not to tell others. I told some people in my halls and chose not to tell others. In the gay community this is not all that uncommon. I have plenty of gay friends who never were witnesses or don't have religious family members, who they have never come out too. Coming out is a very personal and private matter for every gay person and they have to tell the people who they want and not tell the people they don't want to.
I never felt a bit of prejudice by the people I told. I didn't tell everyone, but that was my choice. And beyond the people I told, at least as far as I know, no one else knew.I understand you will choose who you may wish to come out to and who you may not - the extent of your decisions on this was not the point of question. It was more based on surprise that you did not feel any prejudice at all.
TBH, I can imagine them (elders/CO specifically) being outwardly understanding and not actually making a big thing of it but only really if they felt comfortable that you were not "practising" (for want of a better phrase), if they felt a sense of penitence or shame from you that you were simply battling emotions. I am 100% sure that if they felt you were in or actively seeking a homosexual relationship then you would be looking at the threat of judicial action.
Regardless of individual responses there is no doubt that any gay person wishing to be a Witness has to make a stark choice - suppress their emotional desires and opportunity to find happiness with a partner or become someone not welcome at the hall. There is zero option for anyone to be sexually active (or assumed to be so by the elders) gay person and be an active Witness. When push comes to shove, the people you came out to would have to choose the party line above whatever their supposed acceptance and non judgemental, lack of prejudiced attitude to you was to remain Witnesses themselves.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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konceptual99
Hi Richard, firstly I want to say that with many of your posts and arguments I really can see where you are coming from with your points about how you felt you have been treated as a gay person within the WTS and why you might have a different definition of the scope of homophobia within the WTS and I think this in itself could be the subject of an entire thread.
What does particularly interest me, however, is that (if I understand you correctly) you feel that no one you came out to in the WTS treated you any differently. I find this surprising and wondering who it is you came out to. If it was close family members who really loved you then I can understand it but even coming out to close friends would surely be a major risk?
You clearly would have had to assure people you were celibate and were putting your relationship with Jehovah above your physical needs. I really can't imagine that there would have been that many people for whom it would have been as casual a thing to accept as it would be for many people in the world.
I have never met an openly gay Witness. I have never know of anyone described as an "NPG" where there has not been some level of comedy or disgust attitudes attached to discussion about them. Whilst overt homophobia is perhaps a bit less common than it was there is still plenty of casual homophobia that is completely acceptable within regular conversation amongst Witnesses.
I would be very interested to hear a little more about the types of Witnesses that were completely accepting of you when you came out.
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Rank & File Reaction to Leah Remini Series
by freemindfade inwife and i have watched the whole series and just finished episode 7 last night.
personally, i am seeing a great deal more subtle and day to day similarities to watchtower than the obvious ones i already knew existed, ie shunning.
very eye opening and heartbreaking, even more so than going clear in my mind.
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konceptual99
I am watching The Path with my wife at the moment and am not really surprised that she can't see the similarities in certain behaviours and tactics. When I was mentally in then I never thought I was in a cult.
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Short stay
by midnight inafter much research and prayer i am returning to being a jehovah's witness i can find nothing that eliminates them from being god's directed people , in the end they will reach the end of there journey despite mistakes and errors just like the israelites entered the promised land , thanks for your input and all the best on your personal journey ☺.
midnight..
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konceptual99
Hi midnight,
From one of your threads where you talk about atheism and where you are with your wife etc. it seemed to me that you had made up your mind that you no longer believed JWs have the Truth.
Your OP on this thread suggests to me that you are not willing to livewhat is, to all intents and purposes, a double life of disbelief coupled with some token adherence to the life of a Witness. Instead you are just trying to convince yourself that you still kind of believe and going through the motions and not caring about it is better than having to keep facing the question of exactly what you are going to do about your disbelief as time moves on.
Believe you me I can understand this - it's crossed my mind enough. Some days, just playing the game and participating would be easier than the alternatives. It's red pill/blue bill and right now you are choosing the blue pill.
It's a choice and you are free to make it. I just hope you do reconsider one day and when you do really want to take the red pill then we shall all be here to help and support.
All the best and don't be away too long :-)
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Numbers don't lie... and these numbers are beautiful!!
by ILoveTTATT2 inthe numbers don't lie... definitely slowing down!!.
in the 40´s the average growth per year was 20%in the 50´s it was about 10%they had four decades of solid 5% per yearnow the average for the past 16 years has been 2%.
maybe in the future it will be 1% or 0 or even negative????.
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konceptual99
I get Richard's point in as much as simply comparing two years in themselves does not prove anything. For example, saying that (hypothetically) in 1965 there were 1m witnesses and they grew by 100k in a year and in 2015 there were 8m witnesses and they grew by 265k does not prove very much - the second number is a smaller percentage increase but there is no real context to provide any indication of what the difference really means.
When you look at it over a period of years, however, the changing ratio starts to tell a story. If you add to that statistic further data, for example the number of hours spent to get a ratio for hours of preaching to gain 1 conversion, or a geographical breakdown that shows the increase is virtually static in developed nations then you can start to formulate some conclusions.
Cherry picking a couple of years for comparison does prove very little and I would agree with Richard that one it's own even a reducing ratio of year on year increase does not really prove anything of significance. Regardless, when you look at numerous metrics taken together then I agree with all the posters that say the percentages give you the real story. The evidence presented by even just a few related lines of analysis is damning and is 100% the reason why the WTS concentrates on the headline numbers, the long figures that present an impressive picture until you look at the trends.
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Numbers don't lie... and these numbers are beautiful!!
by ILoveTTATT2 inthe numbers don't lie... definitely slowing down!!.
in the 40´s the average growth per year was 20%in the 50´s it was about 10%they had four decades of solid 5% per yearnow the average for the past 16 years has been 2%.
maybe in the future it will be 1% or 0 or even negative????.
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konceptual99
You are correct Richard if you look at the numerical increase. Sure, $1 on $15 is more of a percentage than $1 on $16. But the thing is that if you were negotiating your yearly raise you would not negotiate a numerical increase, you would negotiate a percentage increase.
If you negotiated a 7% increase each year then the actual amount received would increase. If received less then you would start to get a bit miffed as your percentage raise is decreasing.
The same with the WTS. They love to highlight the raw numbers. 8 million publishers, 19 billion hours, 20 million at the memorial, hundreds baptised each day, thousands of congregations.
The fact is however that percentages are important as they tell the real story on things like the efficiency of the preaching work, the conversion rates and so on. The percentages indicate trends that point to the health of the organisation and it's long term viability.
If you are earning $30,000 pa and get a $10,000 pay rise, that's great. It's far less impressive if you are earning $300,000.
The WTS is not an organisation of 1 million bringing in tens of thousands a year. They are an organisation of 8 million, spending almost 20 billion hours preaching yet in the 2014 service year had net increase of 18,000 people. The 2015 service year brought figures like an increase in average publishers of 26 people in the UK.
The WTS hides the reality with the big numbers but the percentages expose the malaise that is infecting the organisation and shows no sign of disappearing.