SeaBreeze, Are you directing that comment at me? If so you will need to explain.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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55
Trinity Statements in the Dead Sea Scrolls
by Sea Breeze indr. ken johnson has identified several statements in the dead sea scrolls that predict that god would visit the earth as a man... as the messiah.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljrfvytjhve&ab_channel=kenjohnson%28biblefacts%29 .
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WT History Video
by Vanderhoven7 inhere is a clear presentation of watchtower history.
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https://youtu.be/u5jnngqqyvc?si=lbuyopdr-n5sji47.
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peacefulpete
A handful of inaccuracies and pretty hostile . Strange comment about "3500 yrs" of 'abstaining from blood" "none had ever died". What does that mean?
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Israel vs Hamas
by Riley inwe might have russians involved in the middle east and are attacking israel.. wait.. i thought the watchtower and tract society was the central figures in the end times.
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not that i believe in any of this nonsense but any news in jw world about how the evangelical narrative might be playing out closer than the wts stupidity.
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peacefulpete
A lot of us need to unplug. Clickbait headlines foster panic and paranoia. Yes, tragedy happens in a world filed with people with different agendas and ideologies but hate breeds hate. It is not in our power to change the world, so we should work on changing ourselves.
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77
What's next?
by lastmanstanding inwhat's next for the world?
a year ago i edited a map of the world to include some big arrows to tell the story of what is to come.
and i shared that map with various friends.
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peacefulpete
Whenever something can never be wrong, it will always be right.
When you untether a prophecy from its historical context there is no limit to the times and ways it is proven 'true'. As long as you ignore what follows your prediction, you are free to reuse it countless times.
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55
Trinity Statements in the Dead Sea Scrolls
by Sea Breeze indr. ken johnson has identified several statements in the dead sea scrolls that predict that god would visit the earth as a man... as the messiah.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljrfvytjhve&ab_channel=kenjohnson%28biblefacts%29 .
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peacefulpete
Sorry had issues with the quotation function. In short there are elements within the TTP that lead some to conclude, must be Christian additions but in my mind might in fact preserve Pre-Christian imagery that was inspirational to Christian origins. Ultimately, there are obvious Christian interpolations and there are provocative symbolism and language that reveal that the Messiah figure/s was described with terminology and Christology that mirrored later Christian usage. Son of God, Word, Lamb, Suffering Servant of Isaiah, Light, death on a tree, etc were descriptions in use among some Jewish sectarians in the years before the emergence of Christianity. Language about a maiden birthing the Lamb might be another example. The metaphor of a maiden birthing a child from Isaiah 7 might have been wrapped in messianic cloth before the writer of Matthew added it to the Markan story.
Were these intertestamental interpretations inspired "prophetic" or were they inspiration for the Jesus story?
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55
Trinity Statements in the Dead Sea Scrolls
by Sea Breeze indr. ken johnson has identified several statements in the dead sea scrolls that predict that god would visit the earth as a man... as the messiah.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljrfvytjhve&ab_channel=kenjohnson%28biblefacts%29 .
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peacefulpete
Unfortunately Ken Johson reveals his complete ignorance by repeatedly calling the 'Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs' the Dead Sea Scrolls. The TTP was not discovered among the collections at Qumran. Some evidence exists that some tiny fragments MAY represent an early Jewish Vorlage for some of the material in the TTP. However, the TTP as it is written is a product of many years of redaction and interpolation by Christians. In fact a number of scholars take the position that the work as a whole was an early Christian product that utilized Jewish material and traditions so as to make the ancient patriarchs prophesy about Jesus. A few Church Fathers seem aware of the work and may have been even quoting it at times.
After a fair amount of reading, I've concluded the work was originally Jewish and pre-Christian; however, it was obviously redacted in the centuries prior to its rediscovery in the 13th century by Bishop Richard Grosseteste. It was Richard's view (which Ken Johnson seems to be parroting) that the Jews hid the work to be able to deny Jesus. That view betrays an antisemitism that was of course common in the period and not scholarship.
The work, even in its interpolated form, has value for research of Christian origins. In my view the work as a whole is overtly pro-Judaism, the concepts and imagery consistent with a work from the 1rst century BCE.
As an example of the suggested interpolations:
19 1 Hear ye, therefore, me vision which I saw. 2 I saw twelve harts feeding. And nine of them were dispersed. Now the three were preserved, but on the following day they also were dispersed. 3 And I saw that the three harts became three lambs, and they cried to the Lord, and He brought them forth into a flourishing and well watered place, yea He brought them out of darkness into light. 4 And there they cried unto the Lord until there gathered together unto them the nine harts, and they became as twelve sheep, and after a little time they increased and became many 5 flocks. And after these things I saw and behold, twelve bulls were sucking one cow, which produced a sea of milk, and there drank thereof the twelve flocks and innumerable herds. 6 And the horns of the fourth bull went up unto heaven and became as a wall for the flocks, and in the midst of the two horns there grew 7 another horn. And I saw a bull calf which surrounded them twelve times, and it became a help to the bulls wholly. 8 And I saw in the midst of the horns a virgin [wearing a many-coloured garment, and from her] went forth a lamb; and on his right (was as it were a lion; and) all the beasts and all the reptiles rushed (against him), and the lamb over 9 came them and destroyed them. And the bulls rejoiced because of him, and the cow [and the 10 harts] exulted together with them. And these 11 things must come to pass in their season. Do ye therefore, my children, observe the commandments of the Lord, and honour Levi and Judah; for from them shall arise unto you [the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world] one who saveth [all the Gentiles and] Israel. 12 For His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, which shall not pass away; but my kingdom among you shall come to an end as a watcher's hammock, which after the summer disappeareth.
The bold sections certainly would be suggestive of a Christian redactor modifying the text. I am reluctant to assume it is in entirety however. The language of the maiden/virgin wearing a colored outfit is difficult to explain if Christain. Also, the continuing reference to the bulls and harts seems difficult to explain as Christian , unless the redactor was convinced he understood the passage and imagery and assumed we the reader would also.
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Jesus and Thomas twin theory?
by Anony Mous inin light of the recent attack on indian jws i did some research about christianity in india and found out that india has a long history of christian influence, and not, like many of us probably believed, brought by the british, rather india has had christians for 2000 years.. matter of fact, they may be similar length and claim to the ‘original’ christians only equal by the roman (european), syrian (middle eastern) and ethiopian (african) christians.
the story goes that judas thomas (aka doubting thomas or dydimus) (literally translated: dydimus = twin (greek) and tomas = twin (aramaic)), the twin brother of jesus travelled to india and did some miracles along the way, started the church there, hence deification of thomas is common there.. i found some articles written by eg.
bart ehrman supporting this theory, personally not that much of a fan, but i know many interested in jw exegesis as he supports various fringe theories including wtbts claim to the name jehovah.. the claims of jesus’ twin brother seem to be supported by the original writings, including the gospel as we know it in the west (almost every canonical gospel writer alludes to the twin), but also various other non-canonical writings and at least 3 complete gospels claimed to be by thomas himself (although the oldest writings stem from the first, second and third century respectively).
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peacefulpete
Bart would be very surprised to learn he agreed 100% with the WT! No, he has quite clearly discussed how Christian theology grew and evolved. For example, the formulaic Trinity doctrine was arrived at after the majority of the NT was written, however it was an attempt to make sense of the often-contradictory descriptions of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Most scholars understand this.
How can Jesus be the Alpha and Omega and the creator of all things while also be said to have been a 'Son'. How can the HS be said to have its own will and act independently of the Father. In other places Jesus is said to have control of the HS. The Trinity doctrine was a philosophical elegant solution. This is what Erhman teaches. The WT rather ignores the theological differences and dismisses half the texts through convoluted arguments.
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Acts 15
by peacefulpete inacts 15. the pericope has been long interpreted by the catholic church as a proof text for a central authority.
churches like the wt repeat this claim.
however, reading the text without this coloring reveals something very different.. the story starts with paul and barnabas going to the antioch church and there they encounter pharisee christians from jerusalem (15:24) contradicting the doctrine held by the antioch church.
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peacefulpete
PetrW......No doubt your reasoning is shared by many here. Not to be offensive but if you rationally apply logic and textual criticism to works such as the Koran and Book of Mormon to conclude they are products of religious creativity, to not use the same rigor with the writings of the Bible, betrays a lack of objectivity.
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If you were to design a new religion?
by ExBethelitenowPIMA inwhat the jw sect has become and is slowly becoming is far more near what i thought could be a good religion based on the bible.. no more counting hours and no more blindly following direction now they admit they are not inspired.. i would like to design a new sect inside the jws.
it has to be kept secret because the elders would not like it.. this new sect involves giving a tick every month or so saying you are still kindof active talking about the bible.. going to meetings occasionally and attending on zoom sometimes.
very rarely go to ministry groups but don’t ever do first call, just say you are doing street work and have a nice walk somewhere maybe the shops or the park.
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peacefulpete
W v2023 is the new kinder gentler organization, ........
Could not help but think of Neil Young, "We got a kinder, gentler machine gun hand."
Yes, the size the church has grown to, and the international progress toward civil liberties has necessitated many changes. Slowly less and less overtly cultlike. However, the ugly violence at the core is the belief that their God intends to kill nearly everyone to make it a 'peaceful world'.
Battlefield 'peace' never lasts, it just leaves scars and broken hearts. You'd think the God of the OT would have learned that.
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124
JWLITE
by Teddnzo ineven elders can be part of the new jw lite brigade these days.
they don’t need to go on door to door anymore and there is no requirement for anything really.. taking meeting parts is all dead easy you could turn up on the day with zero preparation because it’s all in the meeting workbook.. quarterly elders meetings are just old men having a good old natter just like old men do down the pub.. congregations could be likened to pubs or bars these days just without the drinks, those come at other times.. no need for territory maps, these almost went away with covid letter writing now they are extremely slow getting finished as those who still go door to door only do ten mins.. you could even voice your questions these days about things the gb say and then just say “we can’t be dogmatic we just don’t know”.
i predict they will say this about 1914 soon..
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peacefulpete
A double life is half life, half lie.