Posts by OutsiderLookingIn

10

Indoctrination or insistence on being right?

by OutsiderLookingIn in

nobody likes to be wrong.

so after being taught that they have "the truth" for so long, is it that jws just don't want to admit that they are wrong so they'll keep going in the same direction rather than reversing course?

this is different from indoctrination when you truly believe what you're saying.

OutsiderLookingIn

Nobody likes to be wrong. So after being taught that they have "the truth" for so long, is it that JWs just don't want to admit that they are wrong so they'll keep going in the same direction rather than reversing course? This is different from indoctrination when you truly believe what you're saying. Of course, the two aren't mutually exclusive, but what really keeps JWs holding on--indoctrination or a desire to be right/not be wrong?

23

So, any comments from the Memorial?

by NewYork44M in

jw
friends

perhaps i missed the comments, but i did not see a lot of comments from, or about, the memorial.

it happened last night, right?.

in years past the jwn board was hot with comments.

OutsiderLookingIn

Nicholas Kopernicus: The elder giving the memorial talk in my congregation quoted 1 Cor 11:20 to show why individuals should not partake....
" Therefore, when YOU come together to one place, it is not possible to eat the Lord’s evening meal."
I have no recollection of this verse having been used before, and especially its being used out of context like that!

I've had this verse quoted to me from the semi-JW that I know when I said I believe it was wrong for JWs to discourage people from partaking the Lord's Supper. So perhaps this is a recent development to use it. Most likely (in the case of my friend anyhow), one of the reference articles on the subject on the jw website probably cites this verse and they take it and run with it.

I immediately called my friend out on it and said it had been completely taken out of context. Paul was clearly chastising the Corinthians for not reverently treating the Lord's supper as the symbol that it was (v. 27-29). Instead of remembering the body and blood of Christ, they were taking it as an opportunity to be divisive and clicquish. Paul further contradicts this dubious viewpoint in verse 33, when he tells them, "when you come together to eat, wait for one another." Indoctrination is real smh.

16

Russian Ban exposed but not THE ARC...WHY?

by tor1500 in

jw
friends

just your thoughts....i've been all over this site, everyone says, that if jehovah was backing the org.

then why so many things happen in the org.

child abuse, shunning, and so on....but my question or thought is why is the banning of witnesses all over the media, but the arc isn't wasn't picked up in the media, like this (oh little leaks here and there, but nothing major) nothing like the nyt or any major media venue where the friends would see it and couldn't deny it, even if they wanted to....why does the media care more about banning witnesses than child abuse...i know even if the arc was exposed many of the friends would stay, but would be shamed, because they talked about other religions...or maybe jehovah is bringing the org.

OutsiderLookingIn

It's not Jehovah. It's...politics! Putin was (until the Syria military strike, at least) very friendly with Trump, who has a problem with the NY Times and the feeling appears mutual. US news tends to focus on US issues or hot-button topics when it comes to news we care about. Therefore, when it comes to international news, the NY Times will more willingly print negative news coming from Russia and terrorism in Europe than anything else. The ARC, while unfortunate, is on a smaller scale and concerns an internal hearing on the other side of the world.

My other theory is that someone at the NY Times is a JW or has JWs in the family. Because the article was very much painted as small pacifist Christian group against an unreasonable dictator (who doesn't love an underdog?) and no other banned groups were mentioned. It could also be a combination of these factors. That's what I'm thinking anyway.

24

"Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."

by pale.emperor in

now that im not longer a jw this verse puzzles me.

being born and raised a witness, this verse confirmed to me that jesus was talking about a paradise on earth.

but now that everything the witnesses taught is 99.99% incorrect can somone explain what he was getting at here?

OutsiderLookingIn

I just saw this thread and I must say that I, too, am shocked that the official WT position is that Matthew 5:5 applies to the 144,000! I have talked to JWs at the carts (to their dismay) and they are quick to reroute any conversation to Psalm 37 and the promise of everlasting life on earth for the "great crowd". But Psalm 37:11 is the exact same as Matthew 5:5! How can it be for the great crowd in one place and the 144,000 in the other? And I've actually been told that Matthew 5:5 was Jesus's promise to the great crowd on a "Paradise Earth" (never appears in the Bible). So maybe they're misunderstanding JW theology, which isn't too hard to do.

It just got me thinking--Where are any promises for the great crowd really? How does the GB decide what is for the great crowd and what isn't? And how have so many gone along for so long on promises that even the Watchtower says aren't for them? So many questions!

30

The Pagan Origins of the Memorial Observed by Jehovah’s Witnesses

by David_Jay in

“we don’t celebrate holidays because god doesn’t approve of any celebration that is rooted in pagan customs and manmade traditions.” (see here for a similar jw response.).

if you were once an ex-jw like me, you have probably said something like this out in field service to someone who asked the question: why don’t you people celebrate holidays?

as the witnesses' official website states in an faq about not celebrating easter:.

OutsiderLookingIn

Interesting post, David Jay. What I took this post to be about was something that I have thought of before-- that the JW arguments of "we don't do anything pagan" is actually quite foolish. It's something that I've seen as a critique on this site, possibly because that's a good critique against JW's generally, but the fact that something was once pagan doesn't necessarily make it un-Christian. Almost everything has a pagan origin if we look back far enough. JWs back themselves in a corner with the simplistic "once pagan = bad" stance. They don't practice what they preach because they can't.

Once again, JWs go beyond what is written and have no leg to stand on because that's not required by God. There are a lot of things discussed on this site--baptism, wedding customs, pants as the clothing of the warrior, perhaps even the Passover as mentioned in this OP that have pagan, not specifically Jewish or Christian origins. Non-pagan origin is not necessary for Christianity or for God more generally who can use what people are familiar with and redeem it for His own purposes.

2

You can defeat lies with truth. But you can only suppress truth with censorship.

by Island Man in

watchtower bans jws from visiting apostate sites and reading apostate literature.

banning is the tool of the weak and the cowardly, those lacking the courage and/or strength to defeat the enemy face to face.

we ban - quarantine - infected ebola patients from the rest of the population because it's a strong disease and we lack a cure for it.

OutsiderLookingIn

Agreed. I am extremely anti-Watchtower, but I believe that the Russian ban will do much more harm than good. It is misguided and makes the Watchtower sympathetic--a small, sweet group who wouldn't hurt a fly (paraphrasing NY Times take on their pacifist/conscientious objector stance)--in the face of an unreasonable dictator that is friends with our unpopular president. From a civil liberties perspective, this is the underdog story they love to tell. The ban diverts attention from Watchtower's major crimes--major US news outlets are running the story while I probably wouldn't know about the ARC if it weren't for this site (and, to be fair, the Washington Post).

Not only that, it will strengthen JWs in their persecution complex. Borderline JWs will believe it's a sign of the promised persecution and slink back, instead of honestly evaluating the Watchtower's failed predictions and questionable teachings.

However, I don't believe governments have as much power as that, nor should they. Governments are just as capable of propaganda through education as the Nazi youth show us. But my big objection is that it won't be effective. Governments cannot ban thoughts; at best they can regulate actions. Governments can't ban shunning ordained as the will of God; never JWs also choose not to talk to people--whether it's because the person owes them $20 or for no reason at all. So they're not changing minds by banning the Watchtower.

I don't know the history of the Watchtower in Mexico, but just based on what I've read in other posts, there was a time when Mexico drove JWs underground and isn't it now one of the Watchtower's greatest achievements? This ban is only burying a problem that will rise again later on and perhaps in a much larger way.

114

Jehovah's Witnesses ARE Christians, why do so many ex JW's deny this?

by nicolaou in

jehovah's witnesses accept jesus as christ, the son of god.

they try, in their own way, to live by his teachings and imitate him.

they pray, read the bible and meet together regularly for worship.. i won't minimise any of the harm and damage they cause but for the life of me, i can't see how anyone can credibly deny that they are christians.. why do so many former jws have a problem with this?

OutsiderLookingIn

Thanks for that, Vanderhoven and Cofty, for that list. I've never been a JW and now being familiar with the beliefs, I would not characterize JW beliefs as Christian. Some negate the Nicean Creed as a standard. Interesting, since at the same time, it's admitted that there are 40,000 denominations that all seem in general agreement with it--we can barely get 40 people to agree on anything. (As an aside, I've attended Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran and non-denominational services and no one is trying to establish itself as "the one true religion" to the exclusion of all others, such that going to another church would be seen as losing salvation or leaving Jehovah/Jesus).

All of that said, telling someone they're not Christian is not something I would ever say to a JW or anyone. It's a complete nonstarter (as shown by this OP) and only serves to insult and put someone on the defensive. Then there's the fact that Christian is euphemistically meant to refer to someone who is kind or compassionate and that some refer to themselves as Christian because they were born into a family that went to church and is generally familiar with Christian beliefs. But according to the Bible, no one is born a Christian. You must be born again (John 3:5). In addition, Acts 11:26 is the first recorded mention of the term Christian, where the disciples received that name at Antioch, because they were preaching the Lord Jesus (v. 20) and a great number believed and turned to the Lord (v. 21). It doesn't matter what we call ourselves or how we characterize others. Jesus knows His own. As humans, the best we can do is observe their lives--it's by their fruit that we will know them (Matthew 7:20).

16

Any Others of the "Anointed"?

by Hernandez in

i was baptized in 1985, was a regular pioneer, ministerial servant, and on the way to becoming an elder when i left the witnesses in 1999. i also was one of those who claimed and (at the time ) believed i was one of the anointed.. i am wondering if there are any others here who also claimed they were of the anointed?

how did you come to that conclusion?

how do you feel about your claim now that you are out?.

OutsiderLookingIn

It's an interesting phenomenon and I think the consequence of a belief system that there are two eternal hopes even though the Bible only speaks of one. With JWs, you get the division of an earthly reward and a heavenly reward. As a Christian (never a JW), I can say that I don't feel I'm better than anyone else or have an anointed feeling that I'm somehow elite or more special than others. In fact, it's quite the opposite; the Christian life includes times of discouragement, uncertainty and disbelief that God somehow wants me (but He does!). So, if presented with the idea that there is an earthly and heavenly hope as JWs are, I wouldn't think that too many people are going to say, "I'm somehow different therefore I have a heavenly hope that is reserved for 144,000 people in the world for all time."

Add to that, the social pressure of Jehovah's Witnesses and a heavenly hope pretty much being looked down on (such a strange reaction by the way), you're going to have the situation where only people who read the Bible for themselves (Hernando); the mentally unstable; and those with delusions of grandeur that they are somehow different than other people are going to come forward and say that they are heavenly bound. Yes, all Christians believe in some sense that they are chosen by God but not in the sense that only 144,000 of them will be with Jesus in heaven because there are plenty of verses that open it to whoever believes in Him: as many as believe in Him are children of God (John 1:12). So it's not a matter of being special or different from others. It's a matter of being the called out ones, the ecclesia (church).

As an aside, I am still not sure how this doctrine is even propped up the way it is. Revelation 5:9-10, which is used to support that the 144,000 are the only ones ruling with Jesus, actually refutes that assertion for one of two reasons. First, those words are not attributed to the 144,000--Revelation 5:8 refers to four living creatures and the twenty-four elders. Second, verse 9 says [the Lamb/Jesus] has redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation." But the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8). It is the great multitude (crowd) which no one could number that is of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues (7:9). So it is the great crowd that have been made kings and priests (or a kingdom of priests) to our God.

Revelation 5:8-10 (NKJV)

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us/them kings and priests to our God;
And we/they shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 7:9

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands

37

In love with a JW girl

by rastapau in

need advise.

i was in a relation with a jw girl for almost three years(im am not jw) and we are so inlove with each other until someone saw us from her congregation and she was disfellowed and that where the oddness happened.

her family and friends are not talking to her anymore, she wants me to stop seeing and talking to her anymore not until i became a baptized jw.

OutsiderLookingIn

The plot thickens. I'm sorry to hear about your diagnosis. I didn't think of it as using her if you tell her about it. We are human beings. When we receive devastating news, most people don't want to go through it alone. After all, a brother is born for adversity (Proverbs 17:17). It's natural to want to be near those who care about you--in your case, someone who you've shared the last three years of your life with. So let her know if you like. And don't feel like you're weighing her down. It's up to her what she will do with the information.

That said, I don't know that you will necessarily get the outcome you want (compassion and reconciliation). Or if you somehow do reconcile, it seems like it might be a fast track to JW land. She'll really want you to study so you can have a chance to work for your chance at paradise. I'm not sure of your spiritual leanings but if you're Christian, you don't need JW theology. Look to Jesus; He is your peace (Ephesians 2:14). Take care.

47

The End of False Religion Is Near! HAHAHA

by tootired2care in

memories!

i remember a few years back being involved in the campaign work, and having the distinctly awkward experience of having to hand the householders this piece of sh1t tract "the end of false religion is near!"..

i recall the discomfort i had trying to get into a conversation about this nonsense.

OutsiderLookingIn

Average Joe, you're right; I don't believe that every JW is eagerly awaiting the violent death of their neighbors. That's something at least :) At the end of the day, people tend to do what they believe is in their best interest. I think that is especially true of JWs. It's why many exJWs fade instead of shouting TTATT from every rooftop. As a never JW, once I gave any serious thought to JWs and their beliefs (which wasn't until it was really in my interest to do so), I asked myself, what is it that makes them stand with magazines or knock on doors or not celebrate birthdays? These are not "normal" behaviors. It just doesn't come to someone to do any of these things. Yet JWs have been taught that offering Watchtower literature is "preaching" (what God wants them to do) and doing anything that is not OK'ed by the Governing Body is "being a part of the world" (what God doesn't want them to do). Add to that the smugness and sacrifice you can feel from standing in the heat to "preach" to a doomed world that ignores the urgent ~~message~~ magazine holding and you get a situation that most JWs are about the show, trying to rack up points with God. It's about them, and if someone comes into "the truth", it's a side benefit--or worse, a notch in their belt.