Honesty: Any discussion regarding the reality of Jesus and His resurrection necessitates a degree of faith
I think you have just accepted my original point without being aware of it.
Posts by bohm
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27Did Polonius kill his wife? A problem with apolegetics
by bohm ina basic problem with christian apologetics when applied to the bible is that it relies on the tacit assumption you can draw reliable conclusions on the material.
the most common form of apologetics start out by certain claims (the tomb was found empty, the disciples had post-crusifiction experiences of jesus that transformed their lives, etc.
this is hearsay since the person who made the statement cannot be sworn in.
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bohm
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Did Polonius kill his wife? A problem with apolegetics
by bohm ina basic problem with christian apologetics when applied to the bible is that it relies on the tacit assumption you can draw reliable conclusions on the material.
the most common form of apologetics start out by certain claims (the tomb was found empty, the disciples had post-crusifiction experiences of jesus that transformed their lives, etc.
this is hearsay since the person who made the statement cannot be sworn in.
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bohm
A person who believes the resurrection is fact does not need all the facts to believe in the Resurrection, because the Holy Spirit intimately and powerfully reveals Jesus to them.
Since the holy spirit obviously choose not to reveal anything to me we can only agree to disagree. The intent of this topic is to examine the rational basis for believing in the stories in the bible and introducing the holy spirit is OT.
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Did Polonius kill his wife? A problem with apolegetics
by bohm ina basic problem with christian apologetics when applied to the bible is that it relies on the tacit assumption you can draw reliable conclusions on the material.
the most common form of apologetics start out by certain claims (the tomb was found empty, the disciples had post-crusifiction experiences of jesus that transformed their lives, etc.
this is hearsay since the person who made the statement cannot be sworn in.
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bohm
Honesty: The argument in the OP is exactly trying to address the rational basis for forming ones view regarding Jesus and the bible in general. Asking if people think someone can change their mind is a distraction as their psychological predisposition is not really of importance. The issue is what the arguments in fact are and what is reasonable to believe. -
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Did Polonius kill his wife? A problem with apolegetics
by bohm ina basic problem with christian apologetics when applied to the bible is that it relies on the tacit assumption you can draw reliable conclusions on the material.
the most common form of apologetics start out by certain claims (the tomb was found empty, the disciples had post-crusifiction experiences of jesus that transformed their lives, etc.
this is hearsay since the person who made the statement cannot be sworn in.
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bohm
Thanks for all the replies, I hope to read them more fully later when I get off from work.
Honesty: Why would anyone care to dissect the events surrounding Jesus' resurrection in order to know the truth about it?
I think my answer would be that I feel the truth of these claims are important, and I think many Christians would agree -- if Jesus rose from the dead, if the bible is true or not, etc. is to them and I a matter of very great importance. I can accept (though I don't really understand) that you feel this is of no great importance, though I do wonder where you draw the lines of when it is important to know the truth or not: Christianity, all religious claims or all truth-claims in general. Is it for instance important to you that your spouse is faithful or not? If so, why is the truth of that more important than a religious claim, like if you are going to hell, heaven or no where at all? It would seem the later is a bigger deal all things considered.
I can't understand why anyone would want to or even attempt to try to change a person's believe about Jesus' resurrection because I believe it is a very private matter between the person and the creator, if there really is one.
I can answer for myself: If Jesus really rose from the dead, I would very much hope someone would take the time and effort to change my mind so I was in the right.
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Is this a discussion forum or a debating forum , which is it ?
by smiddy indo you get confused sometimes whether this site is a discussion forum or a debating forum ?.
just asking.
whats your thoughts.. smiddy.
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bohm
I think that awful trollish poster who called him or herself "Debator" in one incarnation a few years back has ruined the word "debate" for me forever. -
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Did Polonius kill his wife? A problem with apolegetics
by bohm ina basic problem with christian apologetics when applied to the bible is that it relies on the tacit assumption you can draw reliable conclusions on the material.
the most common form of apologetics start out by certain claims (the tomb was found empty, the disciples had post-crusifiction experiences of jesus that transformed their lives, etc.
this is hearsay since the person who made the statement cannot be sworn in.
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bohm
A basic problem with christian apologetics when applied to the bible is that it relies on the tacit assumption you can draw reliable conclusions on the material.
An example is the resurrection story of Jesus. The most common form of apologetics start out by certain claims (the tomb was found empty, the disciples had post-crusifiction experiences of Jesus that transformed their lives, etc.), and then point out these claims are best explained by Jesus rising from the dead. There are several difficulties with the assumptions in this argument, however I would claim the most fundamental is the attempt to draw certain conclusions on the material for or against the resurrection story. I think this tendency stem from four sources: (i) Saying "we cant know" sell inherently less books than a firm conclusion (ii) psychological need for closure; we want to know the truth and so desire certainty (iii) it seem unfair to treat historical events with the same rigor we demand today since the evidence we demand today would most certainly have been lost (iv) discussing the resurrection of a historical person is so removed from our common-sense experience we easily miss how flimsy the evidence is.
I think this is best illustrated by posing a hypothetical parallel event to the resurrection story which is inherently more plausible and better attested, however it has the big disadvantage of being posed in a situation where we are familiar with evaluating the evidence. The event is the following: Did Polonius, a hypothetical roman senator in the first century, kill his wife? The evidence is in the form of historical documents which allege that Polonius killed his wife, buried her on his property and bribed the slaves and staff into silence and we can suppose the documents are of the same sort as the gospels and letters of the bible. We know how to examine evidence of this form since it is done in trials every day, this is how I imagine this might go over.
Firstly, it is very doubtful this could go to trial because without a body, murder scene, missing persons report etc. it is doubtful if the wife could be declared dead. Suppose we get around this and it goes to court, this is what the prosecutor do not have:
- A witness that can be sworn in and deliver testimony
- A witness that can be interviewed pre-trail
- A murder weapon
- A murder scene
- A body
- Any sort of forensic evidence
What the prosecutor does have is a number of documents. These documents alledge the murder took place, however they are at best hearsay: A parallel case to the documents is a person who did not hear a statement uttered himself, but heard the statement from someone else and is now reporting it. This is hearsay since the person who made the statement cannot be sworn in. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay) However it gets much worse, since we do not have any reliable way to establish the documents themselves are reliable, who made them, who transcribed them, when they were written etc. the prosecutor cannot even convince the court he has hearsay evidence but argue that he might have hearsay evidence, or double hearsay evidence, or triple hearsay evidence etc.
Lets suppose we have evidence available of the sort we will never have for the bible: We have a written confession of Polonius himself, or rather since this account would no survive in it's original form, copies of such a confession. Even this would not be enough for a conviction, since there would be no forensic tools available to prove the written confession was actually from Polonius. In a modern setting this would be something akin to a machine typed A4-page with the supposed confession of a murder but with no way to forensic or geographical tie it to the accused asides the statement contained on the page. Would this even be admitted?
The hypothetical murder would never be provable to the degree needed to secure a verdict today, not because the judge has a sudden fit of naturalism (as is the de-facto response to skepticism), but because the evidence is weak.
Naturally we are not discussing a rather every-day event like a husband murdering his wife, or an even rarer event like a complicated murder plot, but a suspension of the natural laws which inherently requires much stronger evidence than the simple murder plot.
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Kingdom Consolidation and Sales are coming – Reliable Source
by thedepressedsoul ini heard form a reliable source that a kingdom hall consolidation is going to be happening in the us.
currently they are looking at every kingdom hall to see if they could and should sell it.
any kingdom hall that has not been updated and is in a bad location (long driveway, not in a visible location etc...) will be sold.
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bohm
This is why they need (iirc) 12'000 halls in the coming years: Sell old halls, create artificial demand, buy new ones. Rinse&repeat.
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bohm
This may be a good place to plug his biography "Hitch 22". Hitchens is most famous for his oratory skills, however he really shines in the written word. -
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Will the GB now accept Higher Learning???
by 7Starz inreported in many news outlets today including the wall street journal: president obama is pushing for the first two years of a community college to be included in the normal education of the country's children.
the education law currently has a free education from k-12 and obama now wants to include a 2 year community college degree for free (well the tax payers will pick up the tab).
so basically k-12 and a 2 year college associates degree.. if this becomes law, will the gb change their view on higher education and say:.
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bohm
This will sadly not pass for many years and is IMO mostly a political tool to be used in the coming election ("see, the republicans are against free community college for the less privileged"). At that time who knows? With new members at the GB, who knows where they want to take the watchtower. My guess is they will eventually soften on higher education and become more like the Mormons. -
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Is Watchtower's stance against education only for North American witnesses
by wannaexit ini was reading on a european ex jw forum where some feel that watchtower's railing against higher education is primarily for north america issue.
this is due that many in usa and canada leave home to leave on campus.
it was mentioned that many young european jw attend universities and its not frowned on.. i found this odd because i heard what morris and losch said about education in italy.
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bohm
Can you perhaps link to the thread? (or send it by PM).