Posts by Awakened07

78

UNDENIABLE LOGIC. Some cherish it while others dismiss it. Which are you?

by nicolaou in

there are so many ways to get into this topic; homeopathy, astrology, feng shui, alien abductions, seances and so on ad nauseum but let's pick a simple one - mathematics.

do you accept the undeniable logic that 1+1 must always equal 2?.

i cannot conceive of a situation where 1+1=3 but there was a time when i did!

Awakened07

awakened07
are you talking about logic or religion nor specific beliefs here? why the need to mixe everything is that logic?
you want to talk about logic or you want to argue about why you don't want to believe in something in particular (I insiste on particular because of all the examples you've took).
and YES of course logic is not about willing ... WE ALL KNOW THAT (or it's just stupid to just want to believe that's not logic - nothing to deny here) ... So now if you stay logic (check the definition in a dictionnary) can you answer this question (first read yourself back) and now tell me : what was your point exactly ? ...
logic is not about focusing or excluding (from one point of view - here the theology you know about or focus on), logic is about taking everything you can into consideration ... and while I read everywhere I want (just like you probably do) I've read a lot of stuff JUST here (so it's available to aknoledged - how many differents kind of beliefs did you took into consideration here to apply any reasonning to conclude this or that as just I THINK IT'S BULLS or just well I DON'T KNOW - and since you don't know, what is your logic exactly and what can you get out of this but that you don't know) how much kind of faiths and beliefs did you take into condiration in your reasoning here?

Am I talking about logic or religion or specific beliefs? Why do I need to mix everything? - I was trying to get across that using logic in the way that has been done in this threadwith the examples given here will most often not work with someone who believes in these miracles, because the God of the Bible is supernatural. So to simply say "miracles are impossible, therefore they can't have happened" will not work as an argument against someone who believes in that God. I don't think I was mixing anything - I was following the conversation of the thread, and the examples given here, which were biblical. I may have been a little vague at first, I'll admit. That should answer your next question as well, about what I wanted to argue about.

and YES of course logic is not about willing ... WE ALL KNOW THAT (or it's just stupid to just want to believe that's not logic - nothing to deny here)

-Some believers do actually believe without any deep experiences, and some of them are scientists who believe in evolution etc., so they don't really have much to go on when it comes to God, other than faith. And according to Jesus (yes, I'm aware I'm still in the Bible), blind faith was something we should strive for. It was considered better than believing due to personal experiences and proof.

So my point was to - within the context of this thread - put forward the thought that logic, as it has been examplified here, will not necessarily work well in a conversation with a believer in a supernatural God. My post may have been put just after yours, but that didn't mean it was a reply or refutation to your posts.

I don't think we disagree as much as you think. I also think something is 'lost in translation' here and there.

78

UNDENIABLE LOGIC. Some cherish it while others dismiss it. Which are you?

by nicolaou in

there are so many ways to get into this topic; homeopathy, astrology, feng shui, alien abductions, seances and so on ad nauseum but let's pick a simple one - mathematics.

do you accept the undeniable logic that 1+1 must always equal 2?.

i cannot conceive of a situation where 1+1=3 but there was a time when i did!

Awakened07

As much as I'm a great fan of logic and naturalistic views, I don't think you can apply logic and scientific, physical facts to God, because God is supernatural in nature (most Gods, anyway). The logic you use in this thread is logic that works well in the material, observable, testable universe. But no matter what scientific facts you may come up with, or what sharp logic, you will only get a point here and there in the conversation with a believer. The Joker in the deck will always be "God did it that way and God can do anything". Virgin birth? Not a problem at all for God, the creator of everything. Feed 5000 with a small amount of food? Not a problem for God (although as you mentioned, he probably had to 'beam' it over from somewhere else, since he was done creating). Walking on water, making water into vine? Not a problem for God. Healing the sick? Not a problem.

Completely illogical for a human being to be able to do any of these things, but not a God, because he is supernatural (outside of the natural laws). God - if he exists - may not be able to make 1+1=3, but he could influence your mind into thinking it makes sense that 1+1=3. He could manipulate the natural laws. So you can't really use logic to attack those miracle examples directly. You have to start from the bottom up, so to speak. For instance, you may show a Bible believer that the Bible can't possibly be the infallible word of God. But - backed severely enough into a corner, a Bible believer may eventually agree to say that the Bible isn't infallible, and isn't as directly inspired by God as previously thought. So what you're left with in the end then is a believer with a very general belief in the God of the Bible, and a belief that God's thoughts are still found there (somewhere between the lines).

And then you're back to using logic against something supernatural again. If people choose to believe in God for no other reason in the end than that they want to, you can't do much to change their mind by using logic.

But, if you get to a point where the person no longer believes in the Bible (or any other religious text defining God), but simply in a 'some-mysterious-force-out-there' God, then you could start applying logic again to explain how it's weird how God has done things the way he has throughout mankind's history (hmm... I feel like I'm conducting a reverse Bible study here...).

But you could still get stuck with "I'm sure God has his reasons that I have no way of understanding - who am I to judge God?".

So logic and physical evidence can take you so far, but it will eventually still be up to the individual person if he/she is willing to use that in order to stop believing in God, or apply faith (which is more like a gut feeling) and keep believing no matter what - maybe simply caused by an experience that to that person was very real. That experience could perhaps be explained away too - but they choose to apply faith (the "gut feeling"), and see it as evidence (to them) of a supernatural presence.

And they should have that right - even if I personally may think they'd be wrong. Kinda like I would advocate the right to free speech, even though I might disagree with the statements some people make when they exercise that right.

22

JW Science Quote Of The Day 8-28

by TD in

jw
friends

as everyone knows, jehovahs witnesses believe that the entire antediluvian world was vegetarian.

they hold that this was gods original purpose and further believe that the restoration prophecies (isaiah 11:6-9; 65:25) foretell a future return to this state.. for the most part, jw publications have (wisely) avoided discussing the specifics of this belief, but one notable exception to this rule was the article "when all nature will be in harmony" which appeared in the october 8, 1982 issue of awake!.

this article basically asserted that predation is simply a learned behavior that is connected to the fall of man in some unspecified way.

Awakened07

Did Jesus cover their fall as well? Hmmmm....

That's a tough one. But they'll all be brought back to being grass eating nice guys again, so to some extent I guess they were 'saved' too. No eternal life for them though. Not sure if they'll survive Armageddon; if they're lucky enough not to be in the close vicinty of their sinning owners (if they have owners), they should be fine. If you should happen to have a pet cat in the future paradise and it dies, you won't feel sorrow though, 'cause all those awkward feelings are done away with. Which is nice.

24

Paul Blizzard endorses the Creation Museum- do you?

by moshe in

jw
friends

i saw paul's answer to a reader's question on his watchthetower website this week:.

"we are not saved by knowledge but by simple faith in jesus christ.

when i first got saved i didnt believe in a literal hell.

Awakened07

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkiyc0joHO8

11

So... Russell accepted evolution?

by Awakened07 in

-this is probably old news to a lot of you, but i thought perhaps it would be new news to some (like me).. i found this little gem on youtube; it's from the photodrama of creation:.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbmm9gkeqbm.

listen from 01:29 to 03:00, and you'll hear russell explain that he had nothing against the idea of evolution when it came to the animal kingdom.

Awakened07

Russell taught that evolution was used for all living creatures by God with the exception of man himself

Yes - as I said "when it came to the animal kingdom". [edited to add: Ha ha! -Goes to show how long I've been a witness, I guess. "animal kingdom" as opposed to "man". Oh well... you got my point. [/edited] That he thought man couldn't be caused by evolution isn't so strange, since it's so explicitly explained how God formed man from the dirt of the ground in the Bible.

But personally, I thought it was quite special to learn that he didn't mind believing in evolution of animals - with a couple of objections (caused by misunderstanding the process of evolution, and/or by the lack of data at the time).

11

So... Russell accepted evolution?

by Awakened07 in

-this is probably old news to a lot of you, but i thought perhaps it would be new news to some (like me).. i found this little gem on youtube; it's from the photodrama of creation:.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbmm9gkeqbm.

listen from 01:29 to 03:00, and you'll hear russell explain that he had nothing against the idea of evolution when it came to the animal kingdom.

Awakened07

-This is probably old news to a lot of you, but I thought perhaps it would be new news to some (like me).

I found this little gem on YouTube; it's from the Photodrama of Creation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBmM9GkEqbM

Listen from 01:29 to 03:00, and you'll hear Russell explain that he had nothing against the idea of evolution when it came to the animal kingdom.

I'm wondering if he really believed that at the time, or if he included it to please a larger audience? That said, I guess it could do the exact opposite at the time it was shown, 'cause I'd imagine the biblical creation story must have been the "officially approved" story around 1912 in most people's minds (in the western world).

I also wonder (if he once accepted it to some degree at least, with the data available at the time) when he / The Bible Students / JWs ended up discarding it in favor of a more literal understanding of the biblical creation story?

16

Amazing encounter

by Cellist in

jw
friends

this mink showed up and decided that we should share our fish with it.

it wasn't in the mood to wait.

it marched right up and grabbed the biggest fish on the stringer.

Awakened07

Ha ha, that's great! Cute things. I had a close encounter with a squirrel once, but didn't get any good pictures. As long as you have food, they'll do just about anything. They suddenly become super genius too, when it comes to solving the "how do I get to that food?" -puzzle.

17

Life on Mars

by Anti-Christ in

i don't know if this has been discussed before but what if we find life on mars?

what do you all think would happen to bible based religion if we discover life on mars?

and a question for bible believers what would change in your belief if there is such a discovery?

Awakened07

When it comes to JWs (and some others), they believe that Earth and mankind is a first test, so that when Jehovah has proved his right to rule the universe, then other planets can be inhabited, because then a precedent has been established. At least, that's how I remember it. And so, in light of that, it would be very strange that Jehovah had created any kind of life elsewhere.

Then again, I guess (if we're talking bacteria or the like) they'd come up with something, like for instance Jehovah preparing Mars' surface for later life possibly to be put there way into the future.

17

Life on Mars

by Anti-Christ in

i don't know if this has been discussed before but what if we find life on mars?

what do you all think would happen to bible based religion if we discover life on mars?

and a question for bible believers what would change in your belief if there is such a discovery?

Awakened07

I've thought about the same question, and also about making just such a thread before myself.

I'm really not sure how people would react. On one hand, it would be really weird of God to create for instance bacteria on Mars. From a biblical perspective, what would they be good for? What would be their purpose? Why was it not mentioned?

On the other hand, I remember in the mid-nineties when they found a meteorite here on earth, that came from Mars and had what seemed like fossilized bacteria in it. I was in back then, and I thought it was really neat (I had always been interested in astronomy), but I can't remember what I thought about it theologically, or what my parents said about it. Interestingly, when I was visiting my parents last, we saw on TV that there would be a show called Life on Mars coming up, and my mom said "Oh - life on Mars!" (I was surprised at her seemingly interested comment). This is just a drama series that has nothing to do with life on Mars(!), and when I told her that, she almost seemed disappointed. Which I found weird. Maybe my mom isn't as strong a believer in the 'Truth' as I've thought? Maybe she's just waiting for a good excuse to leave?

Unfortunately, the meteorite find I mentioned was soon discredited and forgotten, and the excitement was over.

But I have a very vague recollection of thinking "If this turns out to be provably true, I'm going to have to reconsider my biblical beliefs". So maybe I've been "fading" for longer than I've thought.

32

Witnesses are getting so disconnected from the Doctrine, but won't let go!

by OnTheWayOut in

jw
friends

so i am not going to meetings, but am a fader.

the wife and i get invited to a wedding.

by friends from years back.

Awakened07

But for how long can you stay active and preach to others, when you deep inside have the "if it isn't the Truth, it's still an OK life for me" attitude?

That's what stopped me initially: I couldn't lie people in the face when in field ministry.

Crisis of Conscience, indeed.