Posts by Awakened07

5

Eden's trees

by dogisgod in

i don't understand why god would put those two "special" trees in the garden with his/her brand spankin new unexperienced creation?

why didn't satan tempt them with the "tree of life"?

what a dope.

No sacred trees in Eden - what would have happened?

by Awakened07 in

-this is a hypothetical "for the sake of argument"-topic, where we take for granted that the biblical story of adam and eve (as it is presented in the bible we have available today) is literally true.

i think it can be an interesting exercise.. now - let's for this discussion say god did not plant any 'special' tree in the garden of eden.

no tree of knowledge, and no tree of life.

Awakened07

-This is a hypothetical "for the sake of argument"-topic, where we take for granted that the biblical story of Adam and Eve (as it is presented in the Bible we have available today) is literally true. I think it can be an interesting exercise.

Now - let's for this discussion say God did not plant any 'special' tree in the garden of Eden. No tree of Knowledge, and no tree of Life. What would have transpired?

Well - we have to include Satan here, since he is part of the story. -Actually, even that can be debated, but since I think most of Christendom that understands the story to be literal says Satan used the snake, let's say that's a fact.

Now - we are now in a garden of Eden with no apparent sources of temptation. What wrong could Adam and Eve do? Well - they could kill each other and/or a few animals I guess, or destroy the garden, but what would be their motive for doing so at this point?

In comes Satan. He now doesn't have any specific source of temptation, and he doesn't have a statement by God that he can point to in order to call God a lier. So what could he do? Tempt them to have sex? Well, no - they'd been told to multiply, so that wouldn't be wrong. Tell them to kill themselves because then they'd become Gods? Well - that's more likely, but they were already in a paradise, and they had direct contact with God who could tell/show them what's what.

But let's say he did, and let's say they did.

If one killed the other and survived, that person would have to be punished. If they both died, and/or if they had no children at this point, God would have to start over. If they had kids at this point, should those kids be punished because their parents killed themselves?

And Satan. Shouldn't he be prosecuted for his sin and for misleading the humans? This actually goes for this thread's alternative story and for the original. JWs believe there was a question of universal sovereignty, where Satan (and mankind) challenged God's rule. But seriously. God had created the entire universe and life on earth, and - as far as I know the story goes - the angels supposedly watched it all being created (and Adam most likely watched as God formed beasts from the ground in order for him to name them). How could anyone rightly challenge this Creator's right to rule his own creation?

Now - if Adam and Eve didn't do anything particularly wrong, had children, and lived on, one would think that eventually someone would at some point do something wrong, down the line. But would that then mean the (perhaps by then) worldwide paradise would have had to be destroyed, and all of mankind (or at least this person's descendants) cast out into a desert-like existence? Wouldn't it be more logical to prosecute for each and every single offending human (or angel)?

So.

Wouldn't the garden of Eden story and (if you believe it) the story of mankind have been better off if God hadn't planted the trees, but let it all unfold on its own in its own pace? What was really the point of those trees?

-Maybe I'm 'spiritually stupid', but then you can put me straight.

25

Christianity in a nutshell?

by gaiagirl in

jw
friends

"the belief that a jewish zombie who can make you live forever in paradise if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree".. .

pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

.

Awakened07

It does in a way 'pretty much' sum it up (at least for most of Christianity), but in a way even I'm not too keen on. It creates division more than it makes people think. But I suspect it is written using that particular wording because the usual words used to describe it all have become so ingrained in us and our culture, that only by substituting them with these kinds of alternative - albeit derogatory or ridiculing - words, can we see the absurdity of it from outside the box. But a little too harsh for me. I mean - I can personally laugh at its sarcasm, but I can understand that people's feelings are hurt by it as well.

Another thing is that anything can be summed up in a similar way, but it wouldn't be accurate. Creationists could for instance say that "A blob of goo turned into a cell, which turned into a fish, which turned into a reptile, which turned into a mammal, which turned into an ape, which turned into us." would 'pretty much sum up evolution' (and show how absurd it was), but it wouldn't be accurate or true.

15

The United Nations, the Scarlet Colored Beast and the Watchtower

by jgnat in

this week, the watchtower society set about vilifying the united nations as the scarlet colored beast.

i learned from the revelation book, chapter 34, that it was knorr who started the trend with his public talk in 1942. the revelation book suggests that the league of nations and then the united nations that followed, are direct fulfillments of the prophecy in revelation 17:8. here's an excerpt from the book:.

"the un is actually a blasphemous counterfeit of god's messianic kingdom by his prince of peace, jeus christ - to whose princely rule there will be no end.

Awakened07

"The UN is actually a blasphemous counterfeit of God's Messianic Kingdom by his Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ"

So basically, any collective effort by mankind to set up any kind of forum for seeking peace and diplomacy, and the "failure" of the involved nations to instead collectively become Jehovah's Witnesses, must be wrong in God's eyes. We're not even supposed to try, actually, because trying is the same as blaspheming Jehovah. Nice.

6

Any Independent Confirmation of Magi's "Travelling Star"?

by Rapunzel in

everyone is familiar with the biblical legend of how the magi were led to jesus' birthplace by following a roaming star that came to rest over bethlehem.

i would like to know if there are any recordings outside of the bible of this event.

are there any ancient chinese, persian, mayan, etc.

Awakened07

Mat 2:2 (NIV) “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”

Mat 2:9 (NIV) "After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was."

-Doesn't seem like an astronomical event at all to me.

Then again, I haven't done the usual routine of reading it in the original language, consulting several scholarly encyclopedias on the matter, applying their way of phrasing things back then, using the rule of thumb of "they didn't write things in a literal sense", bending over backwards, throwing salt over my shoulder and saying 'ooogah boogha!'. So I may be wrong; perhaps it does describe a perfectly normal astronomical event after all, when properly read.

25

How close we are to the great Trib

by Tired of the Hypocrisy in

jw
friends

i got the following from a cousin who is hotly in the wt.

the last couple of lines are amazingly idiotic.....what do you all think?

idotic or not idiotic?

Awakened07

He spoke very slowly and clearly so all of the friends were able to follow along closely.

Well - not that I think JWs are stupid, 'cause I don't, but... I found this funny in the context of the rest of this thing.

This comparison of the illustrations shows where we are in the stream of time and how close we really are to the start of the great tribulation. Our illustrations really do teach us!

-Namely the above. Seriously - the drawing shows us how close we are! No wonder he had to speak slowly. Seriously though, this all seems so insane when you get some distance to it, but remember that they believe it is God's organization, so to them it makes perfect sense that God would give us hints through both the text and the drawings. Oh well...

21

Do Facts Prove JW's have the Truth?

by Honesty in

jw
friends

?

Awakened07

Depends.

-They've created their own brand of theology, in which you have to believe and do certain things to be able to say you have the 'truth'. So it becomes a self-fulfilling thing, a snake biting its tail; circular logic. So, in their own, narrow universe, yes - they have the 'truth'; nothing else could possibly be truth in that universe. Jehovah, no Hell, no blood, no trinity, pacifism, God's org. No one else has the same 'truth'. So - they have the 'truth'.

You have to break out of the box to see that it in fact is not the truth.

Truth is not some all over shadowing, all encompassing 'thing' that permeates everything anyway. It's not as black and white as it is in the JW world. Most of us have many pieces of fact that are truths, but there is also room for uncertainty and lack of knowledge in certain areas, unlike in JW land, where anything is explained by a Bible verse or a Watchtower paragraph. We learn as long as we live.

42

Did Prayer work for you, or not?

by gaiagirl in

jw
friends

jws, and christians in genreral, are taught that god answers prayers of sincere believers.

on the other hand, there is a popular bumpersticker which reads "nothing fails like prayer".. what has been your experience in this regard?

did god answer your most heartfelt prayers, or were they ignored?.

Awakened07

Prayer works just fine in getting in touch with ones own inner thoughts, fears, hopes, to realize what needs to be done in order to fix things. It calms you down, gives you focus, and let's you dump your worries onto something you believe is bigger than us, which - true or not - takes a load off you. So does it work? Yes, I think it can.

Does it work in a supernatural way, where a deity fixes or lightens your problems and burdens, big and small? Not in my experience.

7

Has my mom given up?

by Princess Daisy Boo in

jw
friends

so with the memorial a mere 3 days away i was not heard a word from her about it?

each year i am told at what time it will be at the local congregation and some years she has even got one of the local witnesses to contact me to invite me (they even offered to fetch me once!)..

i am assuming that she has decided not to bring up the subject after the talk we had a few weeks ago, but this must be eating away at her big time!.

Awakened07

So with the memorial a mere 3 days away I was not heard a word from her about it? Each year I am told at what time it will be at the local congregation

Same here. First time this year that I haven't heard anything. Sometimes I think she's coming to her senses; that she is aware that all is not well in JW land. But then she ends the phone conversation telling me 'how close' we are to the end... "Just look at the world's financial situation! There's so much happening in the world right now, we're so close!" She just says that, and doesn't actually ask if I believe it or not, or tell me to 'come back' or anything. I think she believes - against the official JW doctrine - that I'll be OK through Armageddon even if I'm not in it anymore. I think it's like that with a lot of Witnesses these days; they "round off" the sharp edges of the WT teachings to suit what they believe is more likely. Not out loud of course, but in their own minds.

9

Belief in an afterlife, and the difference in JW and 'apostate' thinking.

by Awakened07 in

-how powerful the thought of an afterlife is, if you can make people believe in it!

what power would religions have over people if it weren't for the teachings of an afterlife?

while reading crisis of conscience way back, it dawned on me that most of the things that separate 'apostate' thinking from jw thinking, and makes us appalled at some of the teachings, is simply that active jws truly believe that following the organization's guidance will lead to an ever lasting afterlife.

Awakened07

Yes - I don't really mind anymore that people are religious, or rather, 'spiritual'. It's their life, and their experience. As long as it does not hinder educated thought, true scientific search for explanations of the natural world for the public, and the self realization and free expression for the individual, I don't have much against it.

I'm not even going to argue against the notion that religion/spirituality can be good for people; actually I think it can. No wonder it has been so successful for tens of thousands of years.

The important thing is that it does not harm or severely burden the individual, or try to hinder the research of the natural sciences, or influence politics. Unfortunately, many religions and/or their various sects do just that.

My main point here was not to attack believers in general, but to point to what it is that makes JWs rationalize some rather appalling beliefs and practices.