if you remember, i've been posting here my subsequent steps from a regular pioneer and ms at the beginning of this year to a rank-and-file publisher after stepping down as ms two months ago.. during these months, i've been through a difficult way.
but after every step, i could feel freer and better.
i've met a person outside the wt that has changed my life forever and i have experienced a freedom of thought and an inner peace like never before.. however, i knew that staying in my hometown would make my fading very difficult.
Just my opinion, but one meeting in a new place may not be sufficient. It is possible they will mail back your records if they never see you again.
If you want to fade, I would skip weekend meetings and arrive late for a few mid-week meetings until I knew I was "announced." I think you have to turn in time once and wait past the end of a month.
Then I would stop all attending.
ok. i had a fascinating conversation with one of my polish colleagues at work.
she knows i'm a jdub and an activist as have filled her in warts and all about watchtower.. she came up to me today explaining how a couple of polish witnesses came to her door.
she was curious as to how they knew to call on her door knowing she was polish.
I am going to suppose something here. Cannot say it as a fact.
And as I suppose this, it is possible that the situation is only localized, despite my sureness that it is not.
Ok, so all that code is important to remember as I go along.
Suppose a foreign language congregation has some children that belong to schools where "worldly" people also speak that foreign language. Some parents get lists of other parents' addresses. Suppose some congregation members belong to various aid-groups for people within that foreign language culture. They might also obtain lists of addresses.
Such various lists would be technically "illegal" in many cases to share with others outside of that group, no doubt about it with school lists. It certainly would violate the intent of those who shared it with the foreign language JW to begin with.
So suppose a congregation just incorporates those lists into its database and destroys the original lists they came from, therefore allowing every single member to say to the 'householder,' "No, I don't know how your name and address got onto the list. I do know that you live in an English-speaking neighborhood, so perhaps our English-speaking Witnesses made note that you were [not English-speaking]."
on another thread, shadow asked pimojw, a newbie still serving in a congregation, "how about the overlapping generation?
do you know anyone who actually believes that?
"answer was "no i dont!
I want to thank you all for your comments. I am sure there are some JW's who believe and follow the crazy explanations, unlike us who follow them to see why they are not to be believed. But it seems to me that hardly any JW's really accept stuff like "overlapping generation." So they are either in it full of doubt or they are in it because they are scared/confident/concerned that the end is imminent, possibly due to their belief in the prior doctrines. (I know I once accepted the doctrine of a 1914 generation surviving 'til the end.)
Despite my confidence that we cannot just shake our loved ones awake with challenges to the doctrine, I am now equally confident that many will wake on their own, others will appreciate our reaching out on a loving, caring level.
I am also confident that Watchtower will clearly start it's membership downfall in just a few years (or sooner). And it will reach a point of no recovery perhaps in less than 20 years. The number is pure opinion/speculation from me, but all recruitment is essentially from born-in children. A high percentage leave and both upper echelon and rank&file that stay have little faith in doctrines.
When the end doesn't come for the elderly members, more adult children and grandchildren will let their own next generation remain unbaptized.
I really am starting to believe in the Watchtower becoming what the "Bible Students" (Russelites) are today- virtually nonexistent.
on another thread, shadow asked pimojw, a newbie still serving in a congregation, "how about the overlapping generation?
do you know anyone who actually believes that?
"answer was "no i dont!
On another thread, Shadow asked PIMOJW, a newbie still serving in a congregation, "How about the overlapping generation? Do you know anyone who actually believes that?"
Answer was "no i dont! i think everyone doubts that nonsense!"
So that gets me really thinking about that.
My mother tried to tell me that when it was new and I think she confused herself and was only hanging on to it as a last-ditch effort to cling to her much older belief that the end should have come in 1975, but delays because "we don't know when Eve was created." (A long doctrinal explanation- basically saying that Eve is not 6000 years old yet.)
So their big recruitment tools in most of our lifetime has been the 1914 generation seeing the end, then specifically 1975, then the 20th century. After that, we all have a good idea how they got lost in what "generation" means in some secret code beyond what the Bible said.
So I know that my mother doesn't sit well with "overlapping generation." My thought for you on this thread is as the title says. Do you think many (or most even) that try to follow doctrine reject the current teachings from Watchtower? Does saying they are not inspired hurt them even more.
I will grant that most JW's don't keep up with the chariot of doctrine, but some still try.
so i am reading from many that they have an excellent thought-stopper for jw's.
(remember reasoning from the scriptures used "thought-stoppers?
)"if you just show them [this scripture or use this logic or expose this problem with the organization], you will shut them down.".
I think that contributes to people's tendency to want to counter WT indoctrination with catchy zingers of their own.
Page 2:
Flipper, perhaps it will sink in one day. Keep trying.
Bungi Bill, if appeals to the emotion don't work, you are still known for giving it such a great try.
so i am reading from many that they have an excellent thought-stopper for jw's.
(remember reasoning from the scriptures used "thought-stoppers?
)"if you just show them [this scripture or use this logic or expose this problem with the organization], you will shut them down.".
sparrowdown, thanks for sharing that story. That person has come so close to a point of finding solutions, but just won't take the leap that something might be wrong with "the truth."
Xanthippe, you said "...individuals usually know how far they can go with a religious discussion so if you think it's worth a try go ahead I would say."
YES, by all means say what you can. I am not saying such talk is "useless." I just don't want to give a pass to those sure that they can defeat JW's with logic and doctrine discussions.
More on that with my comment to Punk:
punkofnice said: "I'd call it realistic. Standard jobo responses are varied but seem to hinge around - circular reasoning, wait on Jehovah(tm) or 'are you an apostate(tm)?'"
Great comment. I don't attack the doctrine very much with my JW wife or mother, mainly because I don't want to lose them to that question, "Are you an apostate?"
I would rather slowly win them over, and if that fails, maintain good relations. Good relations tends to lead them toward realizing that I am not evil, not mentally diseased, and perhaps they could examine THEIR doubts as the organization continues to take their money and deny truths and change the Doomsday calendar.
i have been sneakily looking at this forum, almost every day, ever since it began!
it has taken me till now to actually register and contribute.
(actually i did register with a different name in the beginning but never commented).. i am a pimo elder with a fairly long history of senior "positions" in the organization.
Welcome to the posting side of this forum. For any readers who didn't get it, PIMOJW means
"Physically-In, Mentally-Out" JW.
I was (extremely shortly) where you are, but couldn't stay there. For my own reasons, I had to get away from it.
I won't lecture you on what you should do, everyone has their own path to follow, but please don't quickly dismiss the idea of stepping away from the elder assignment. It doesn't have to disrupt your JW family if you did it for health, financial, or just personal reasons that cannot be fully shared with family. Okay, done with that non-lecture.
I hear ya about creating a new email and being careful about getting caught involved in anti-JW stuff on the internet. As a faded JW, I still maintain many separate things. I am just less and less worried about it as time goes on.
As for the ideas you suggest here on page 3:
"...another positive of still being in and an elder is that i can hopefully help with the terrible situation surrounding child abuse. many elders HATE the direction they are getting. they either go along with it , or kick up a fuss in a way that gets them removed and dfd. I know the system, i know how to deal with co's, the branch, and even WHQ. at the very least im on hand if anything happens locally.
a number of elders speak openly about their disagreement on issues to do with child abuse, money (being taken from congs, and the begging), treatment of sfts's who were "reassigned to pioneer service" (booted out), khs being sold etc. there is a LOT of dissatisfaction out there, but not a lot of will to deal with it. "
Edited to add: I had comments here and they disappeared.
I wanted to say, you surely could be a big help to an individual in the congregation facing problems about abuse. You could help them to get the proper help.
But I wonder on the rest- did you actually stop WTBTS from getting your congregation funds? Did you prevent the selling off of a KH? I hope I am wrong, but I don't feel that one elder, well-intentioned and knowing their system, can make the tiniest difference to decisions made at a much higher level. I am glad you want to buck the system and stand up for some things. But I will say that you will probably be removed as an elder somehow if you have any success. If they cannot come up with charges, they would simply close and sell your KH and tell every other congregation that you are not recommended to be re-appointed. And I would be proud to be kicked out of the boys' club for such a reason.
so i am reading from many that they have an excellent thought-stopper for jw's.
(remember reasoning from the scriptures used "thought-stoppers?
)"if you just show them [this scripture or use this logic or expose this problem with the organization], you will shut them down.".
A poster on FB said something to the effect that they shut down JW's and they were not able to answer at all.
When I heard what the FB poster said, I had a JW answer in mind instantly. It doesn't even have to make sense to you, it just has to seem to be right to them so they can say "That was not a GOTCHA question."
It was something like this shortened version below, but to be fair to the FB poster, it was much longer and more detailed. Still, it boiled down to FB poster thinking the JW's cannot answer this.:
FB- So I asked them what good killing all the evil sinners will do, because it was already done at the flood and evil came back.
"They had no answer."
I immediately knew the JW answer.
JW- The flood had to prepare the way for Jesus. The world was too evil, not ready to receive the son.
The difference between that destruction at the flood and the next one is that inherited sin still existed in humans, but after the destruction at Armageddon, the ransom can be applied to eliminate inherited sin and evil will be eliminated for good.
Oh, there's plenty of problems with that over-simple answer, but that just doesn't matter to a JW. They know the answer to say. Maybe some are not sharp enough to come up with that right away, but they can leave a conversation and go find that answer.
jp1692, "Never discuss doctrine" is a good idea. jwfacts has nice summaries of changed doctrines.
days of future passed, I read you. I recently discussed Joel Osteen in the Houston area not opening his building to hurricane victims and I piled it on with Joel's excuses. My wife fully agreed that wasn't right for Joel to do what he did. I then switched to JW's and their Assembly Hall near there, stating that I haven't read of Watchtower opening up to anyone, even members to come there and receive aid and a place to sleep. I even got to say how, at Sept. 11th, Brooklyn Bethel made sure to close their doors as a wave of people needed a place of safety as the cloud of rubble drove them that way.
do any of the current governing body have academic qualifications?.
thanks.
paul.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!
imagine if we had an opportunity today to ask any of the faithful disciples this question.. who resurrected jesus?.
what would their response be... if they still remembered what jesus said in john 2:19-22.
19 jesus replied to them: “tear down this temple, and in three days i will raise it up.”+ 20 the jews then said: “this temple was built in 46 years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 but he was talking about the temple of his body.+ 22 when, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples recalled that he used to say this,+ and they believed the scripture and what jesus had spoken.. .
You suppose too much when you suppose these men actually existed and it all happened as was written in what I am sure are 4 fictions chosen out of several.
