Posts by Zico

23

IF there were two classes/callings why were all early Christians limited...

by oompa in

...to only being called to heaven as part of the 144k?

god is not partial, and does not predestine people, so why could first century christians not have had an option for paradise on earth?

i got to thinking about this since last year wt opened the doors to heaven again for the masses for the first time since 1935. .

Zico

Oompa,

Revelation 7 says this of the Great Crowd:

13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation...

This leaves them in a tricky position, theology wise, as you can not be a part of the great crowd if you do not live through the 'great tribulation'. This is why the Society teaches that anyone who dies before Armageddon is not a part of the great crowd, they almost become a third group: The non-anointed resurrected. Practically everyone who has ever lived who has died and is not part of the anointed is in this third group, and will be resurrected to the Paradise Earth, whether they were faithful 'Christians' or not, and all they have to do, is be lucky enough to die before Armageddon.

Saying then, that early Christians had an 'Earthly hope' is to put them on a level with basically every other person who ever lived no matter their religious beliefs, which would suggest following God was a waste of time if they never managed to achieve the anointed status. Time is already making this problematic for them, as so many have become JWs and died since 1935, and they get no extra reward for the years they spent serving Jehovah, as they gain nothing they wouldn't have gained anyway, but when Rutherford invented the doctrine in 1935, he had no concept of the world going on for 73 more years.

33

INPUT NEEDED ON JW BELIEFS

by Mary in

i'm at the beginning of putting a package together regarding the wts and i'd like your opinion on which topics i should include.

basically, this would be a package for those who have family or friends in the borg, but who you think might listen to reason if it was presented in the right fashion.

it's not going to be a huge package, because i don't want to overwhelm anyone, but i want the information to be precise enough that it would stop and make them think.. so far, i'm thinking that i'd like to touch on the following:.

Zico

A comment on false prophecies might be useful. Not just dates, but events (i.e. Rutherford predicting the axis powers would win WW2, Catholics taking over the world, Germany/Communist Russia as final King of the North)

It's important, because most JWs are dedicating their lives to a prophecy, and it should cast doubts on the events that are supposed to lead up to the 'Great Tribulation' (banning of religion)

5

Why does the Great Crowd have faith in the resurrection?

by moomanchu in

jw's believe in two resurections the heavenly (spiritual) and earthly (physical).. jesus died and was resurrected as a spirit.. therefore the 144,000 can look back on this event and have faith that.

the resurrection will happen.. the earthly resurrection never has happened as taught by jw's.

how can the great crowd have faith in the resurrection.

Zico

Well, they could point to the people that Jesus and the Apostles was said to have resurrected. i.e. Lazarus.

27

C.S. Lewis and his "trilemma".

by gaiagirl in

jw
friends

author c.s.

lewis once wrote that one of three situations exist: .

1) jesus was the son of god .

Zico

I'm in agreement with hmike. As I posted on a recent thread on 'Mere Christianity' the problem with the book is that C.S. Lewis wrote it for a 1930s/40s audience, and not a 21st Century one, and now we're in a time where Science and Philosophy (and Skeptic's arguments) have advanced some what, some of his arguments appear weak.

He's still a wonderful writer though, and his fictional works are timeless.

40

My Visits To Church

by serotonin_wraith in

why would an atheist go to church?

to seek out a god?.

no more than a historian seeks out ra or hathor by researching egyptian religions.. those religions are dead now.

Zico

Preaching in the Churches? You're like a modern day Apostle Paul! :)

Are you intending to go to any non-Christian temples/synagogues? You might find it interesting to converse with some Muslims/Jews/Buddhists etc...

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

Zico

*Adds further agreement to Lily and BurntheShips*

Mog:

I'd be surprised if the NWT were in the position to translate John 20:28 as 'my god' and didn't.

'where do you hear GOD THE FATHER call JESUS HIS GOD'

Sarah mentioned Hebrews 1:8, where the Father calls Jesus God, though not his God (dependant on bible translation)

'and where do you find the HOLY SPIRIT THE GOD..'

We weren't talking about the HOLY SPIRIT!

As Lily said, I don't think Trinity is an essential subject.

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

Zico

Reniaa,

The Trinity is far from the only sticking point for me. ;) I appreciate your links though. As far as I know, Christadelphians do not allow a relationship with Jesus, in a similar way to the Jehovah's Witnesses. That is definitely an 'unbiblical teaching' whether Jesus happens to be a part of a Trinity or not.

Mog,

I disagree with your cut and paste explanation of John 20:28. It wasn't directed to the father:

In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”

Note Thomas was speaking to Jesus, and answered HIM. You'd have to add to the verse to have him directing 'my God' at the Father. Also, Jews did not have an equivalent to the Modern English exclamation of 'My God' or French 'Mon Dieu' so I doubt it would be an exclamation of surprise. This explanation again however fails to take into account that it was a statement directed at Jesus.

"if the author interpreted Jesus' silence to be his approval of this claimed testimony, then John would have written "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Almighty God" and not "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ...""

That's quite an assumption Mog, why should John have wrote that? Being the Christ wouldn't rule him out from being "Almighty God"

Real one,

This thread has nothing to do with evolution.

33

How C.S. Lewis helped me to see Christianity for the joke that it is

by nvrgnbk in

jw
friends

i read mere christianity.. .

.

Zico

I think Mere Christianity is a great book for ex-JWs looking to understand more about Christianity, as more mainstream Christians read the bible from a very different perspective to JWs.

Nvrgnbk,

I agree it's a poor apologetic by modern standards, but when reading it, it should be noted that it was written for a 1930s/40s audience, and not a 21st Century audience. Science and philosophy has advanced quite a bit since Lewis' time.

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

Zico

You can believe Jesus is God without believing in the Trinity. Maybe start with that one first? Zeroday, I noticed you never made a response to BurnTheShips about John 20:28, 11 verses after the text you have quoted regularly on this thread, Thomas calls Jesus 'My God'

"Personally I think you have to put your mind through scriptural loops becoming intellectually blind to many scriptures and ignore a glaring lack of holy spirit information to allow for the trinity."

Reniaa, I agree (to an extent) for the Trinity, but not for the deity of Christ. You also have to put your mind through scriptural loops becoming intellectually blind to many scriptures and ignore a glaring lack of ... information to support the Watchtower's position on the nature of Jesus and the Father.

18

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah Ginger

by RAYZORBLADE in

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah ginger.

(quote scripture) blah, blah, blah, blah...ginger.. ginger, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...(refer their quote)...blah, blah, blah.. http://static.flickr.com/47/153603564_7281ad0588.jpg.

.

Zico

Weren't most on this board JW apologists at one time? JW apologists on this board have listened and changed their minds in the past.

I do understand though, many just don't listen, I don't get that with Reniaa though.