LOL at gubbering body: With a little bit of good philosophical lawyering, you can get anyone to complete ignorance within three questions unless they have prepared in advance for the discussion.
Posts by Spook
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7Philosopher Karl Popper says a closed society is the most dangerous
by yadda yadda 2 inthe eminent 20th century philosopher karl popper condemned a closed society where criticism is suppressed as the most undesirable and dangerous type of society (eg, george orwell's 1984).
yet the watchtower organisation is a religious society that forbids criticism, open debate and has a leadership that is completely unaccountable to it's members.
the watchtower leaderhship enjoys unquestioned authority over all doctrine, policy and teaching and total submission from it's adherents.
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18
I got my hands on the new "Wonders of Creation" DVD release
by Megachusen inmy head is still ringing from all the delicious spiritual food that i received today so i won't have my review up for at least another day or so.
suffice it to say that the dvd is extremely well designed(for the society, that is).
you can tell right away that they put a lot of money into cg planetoids.
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Spook
Here's my rebuttal
If (P) God were to exist and created the world
then...
(Q) It would look finely tuned.
P -> Q
It is not the case, however that
Q -> P unless, all things being equal:
1. All natural explanations are either logically impossible or else more highly improbable than theism.
If both theism and naturalism claim a brute fact (either the universe exists with no explanation or else the universe and God exist with no explanation) then theism is objectively less likely to be true than naturalism, all things considered since the the former claims N+1 as a brute fact and the latter claims only N as a brute fact, given the divine choice to create was contingent and not necessary. (Meaning God chose to create the universe). If it were necessary that God created the universe (he had no choice) then naturalism wins even if a natural explanation is not forthcoming.
I think this is a pointless argument. The value of our present knowledge better informs our ignorance rather than assumptions about our ignorance twisting our present knowledge. This is a philosophical chestnut that does not shed much light on the question.
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113
Topics for discussion with JWs - part 3: Homosexual animals...
by Albert Einstein ingod hates homosexuality very very much ... right?.
being wicked homosexual ... you are to be destroyed in armageddon ... right?.
people were created by god as heterosexual, but some are today homosexual as a result of imperfection - punishment for disobedience of adam a eve..... but why there is so much homosexuality among god created animals?
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Spook
The two defenses to my argument are the "free will" defense and the "fallen flesh" defense. The former is false because at least some homosexual actions are natural. The latter can be defeated as follows:
Were God to exist he would posess at least the following traits:
1. Having a strong desire for humans to freely choose serving him.
2. Not wanting anything more importantly, with respect to free will, than (1).
It is very unlikely that either of the following would obtain were God to exist:
1. Demons exist and their free will is more important to God than is the free will of humans.
2. God created humans in such a way as to purposefully stack the deck against them, making it natural for them to become naturally homosexual.
The last one relies on an assumption that God is rational, and the biblical position that homosexuality is unnatural. God would not create something natural and then call it unnatural, all things considered, were God a rational being.
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113
Topics for discussion with JWs - part 3: Homosexual animals...
by Albert Einstein ingod hates homosexuality very very much ... right?.
being wicked homosexual ... you are to be destroyed in armageddon ... right?.
people were created by god as heterosexual, but some are today homosexual as a result of imperfection - punishment for disobedience of adam a eve..... but why there is so much homosexuality among god created animals?
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Spook
Look,
The argument goes like this:
P1. Were either theism or naturalism true, then any action taken by an agent is either naturally necessary, random or teleological.
P2. Homosexual actions are not random.
P3. At least some homosexual actions are very probably the result of natural necessity.
P4. Were God to exist he would posess at least the following traits:
A. Loving humans.
B. Having created humans as naturally heterosexual.
C. Having a desire for humans to freely choose a relationship with him.
then.
C5. From 2-4 it is very unlikely that God exists.
P6. If naturalism were true, then humans and animals are very probably more similar than under theism.
C7. Therefore we would expect to find natural instances of homosexuality in other animals.
P8. A posteriori: We do find such instances.
C9. Therefore it is both very unlikely that theism is false and also we observe an instance of evidence for naturalism.
Bingo bango.
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7
Philosopher Karl Popper says a closed society is the most dangerous
by yadda yadda 2 inthe eminent 20th century philosopher karl popper condemned a closed society where criticism is suppressed as the most undesirable and dangerous type of society (eg, george orwell's 1984).
yet the watchtower organisation is a religious society that forbids criticism, open debate and has a leadership that is completely unaccountable to it's members.
the watchtower leaderhship enjoys unquestioned authority over all doctrine, policy and teaching and total submission from it's adherents.
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Spook
The WTBTS does not have progress as it's goal. Neither does it have solving problems as it's goal. It has as it's goal the maintaining of order, in other words, progressing through time with as little change as possible to the basic structure of the organization.
In this case, they are rationally maximizing their decisions. It is rational for them to disuade the internet, higher education, sharing personal opinions and having close relationships outside the organization. If it were true that Jehovah existed and that their theism were correct, this is exactly what they should be doing. Unfortunately, it is not true.
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14
College edumacachoon...
by mkr32208 ini'm a big fan of college.
however i just have to wonder if sometimes the society isn't right about it.
i mean are we devaluing the college education with this 'everyone should go' type mentality?
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Spook
All other comments not-withstanding, there has been an inflation of education. The underlying cause is that there has been an inflation of knowledge.
In the 1800's, to get a bachelor's degree nearly meant that had a relatively deep, contemporary knowledge on all or most matters of human experience. Now, a Phd means that you have a good background knowledge of 1 subject, complimented by indepth knowledge of one specific research question within that field.
Vocational training exists because of market forces. Companies can in essence pass off the cost and risk of training an employee. They can then hire a pre-trained employee. The company benefits by having a more efficient work force. The employee benefits through higher starting wages.
People who do not want to go to college have no good reasons to do so, all things considered assuming they can accurately assess their own future priorities in the present. People who do want to go to college have no good reasons not to, all things considered. It depends on the goals and desires and how likely one is to be able to predict their future desires. I think it is safe to say that very few people truly view their college experience as a complete waste. It may be an economic waste but a valuable life experience which bonds them with their cohort of friends and family. In general, the JW's are criticising college because they believe...
1. The desire to have a career which is meaningful or which supports a wealthy lifestyle is superfluous or immoral.
2. College itself is used by invisible supernatural powers to ensnare people.
Both of which have nothing to do with the question of whether college delivers as promised. I will want my children to go to college and graduate school. I wish I would have been free from the pressure to under-sell my opportunities. This I will never forgive the JW's for. Everything else I don't really care about too much. There were things I could have done and wanted to do, but I didn't with great sadness out of a false sense of duty.
Even in the trades there is a tendancy toward consolidating under larger businesses which are more profitable. Look at the big publicly traded home builders, for example.
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What UNUSUAL MARRIAGES have you seen among JW's?
by BonaFide inthese are couples that i know personally.. a brother i know married a sister 36 years older than him.
he was 35, she was 71. they are still married 5 years later.
they do not get along, and they make that known to the entire hall.. a brother that has been married twice and is 50 years old recently married a 19-year old.
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Spook
40 year old widdower married a 20 year old girl, former baby sitter, after his wife died of cancer. He had a 12 year old daughter at the time. I AM judging this. It's not immoral, however, the overwhelming consensus of pshycologists would concur that such marriages represent drastically damaged individuals.
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How Would You/Do You Help JWs Think About Possibly Getting Out?
by minimus inif you sensed that a jw might be unhappy, how might you get think thinking??
?.
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Spook
I think they have to have motivations to leave - in other words they have to think it is a better decision or else be motivated partially by anger or negativity against JW's. The latter will be hard to muster.
I'd say just show them how great life is on the outside. Never ever put up with the pessimism and negativity about life as a normie. I make it a point to always invite people to do things during meeting times.
Quiz people about "new information" they learned at meetings or conventions. The vast majority of people won't be able to identify a single thing. Then ask them why they bothered going.
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How does the Annointed that survive Har-maggedon get to Heaven?
by Mad Dawg injust wondering, the wts teaches:.
that the annointed (the 144k) will rule from heaven.bodies of flesh can't enter heaven (therefore the annointed must die at some time to get to heaven).that there will be annointed that survive the big a.that those who are faithful after the big a will never die.if one becomes unfaithful after the big a, they will be destroyed.if all of the above are true, then any annointed caught on earth at the time of the big a will be stuck here forever and have no way to get to heaven.
do i have this right, or have i missed something?.
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Spook
"Rapture"
Why not call them a 3rd class and claim they will live forever on earth as eternal, regressive despots.
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WHO WROTE THE BIBLE??? RESPONSE TO THE NEW PUBLICATION.
by whereami infor those whow believe god authored the bible , this info will make you question your faith.
very well done.. i would love to see how the wts would respond to this, especially after the new publication on the bible was just released at the convention.. maybe one of our inhouse scholars (narkissos/leolia) can back up this info.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2061773048178434620&hl=en.
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Spook
Ehrman is good. I like his textbooks more than his pop books. Check out Hector Avalos as well. The Skeptic society has two good really accessible books about the bible. One is The Secret Origins of the Bible (silly title as admitted by the author...for sales purposes only. the content is good). The other is something specifically about prophetic claims. The latter one is really good in that it walks you step by step through all the common prophetic claims of fundies. It also gives a good general guideline for "what would a prophetic claim look like?"
It, while still a JW, helped me realize such obvious facts as:
It is relatively meaningless to prophecy that a nation will end at some point in the future since, for all we know, every nation has "ended" in some natural way or else is modern, and probably will end, in some natural way.