How does the Annointed that survive Har-maggedon get to Heaven?

by Mad Dawg 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Mad Dawg

  Just wondering, the WTS teaches:

  • That the annointed (the 144k) will rule from Heaven.
  • Bodies of flesh can't enter Heaven (therefore the annointed must die at some time to get to Heaven).
  • That there will be annointed that survive the Big A.
  • That those who are faithful after the Big A will never die.
  • If one becomes unfaithful after the Big A, they will be destroyed.

  If all of the above are true, then any annointed caught on earth at the time of the Big A will be stuck here forever and have no way to get to Heaven. Do I have this right, or have I missed something?
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  blondie

  They have to die eventually. While the WTS wavers back and forth on whether there will be some anointed who live into the "new system" on earth, they still say that these people could grow old and die eventually or God could take them like he did Enoch.

  I always wonder if the marriage of the bride and Jesus takes place shortly after the destruction of Babylon the Great how long is the great tribulation going to be culminating with Armageddon.

  ***

  w92 4/15 p. 17 par. 22 Jehovah’s Provision, the "Given Ones" ***Finally, after the demise of Babylon the Great, all 144,000 ‘sealed ones’ will be in heaven for the marriage of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:1-3; 19:1-8)

  (sealed does not mean in heaven though per the WTS)

  *** w90 8/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***In the book of Revelation, immediately after John tells of God’s executing the religious harlot, Babylon the Great, he describes "the marriage of the Lamb." A filthy, immoral "woman" is removed from the scene, and we see "the bride, the Lamb’s wife" ‘arrayed in bright, clean, fine linen, which stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.’ (Revelation 18:10; 19:2, 7, 8; 21:9) The destruction of Babylon the Great is part of the great tribulation. (Matthew 24:21; Revelation 7:14) So it could be reasoned that some of the bride class will survive the great tribulation as evidence of Jehovah’s approval and protection. (Zephaniah 2:3; compare Matthew 24:22.) If they are thus preserved on earth, they could remain here until God chooses to take them to heaven.

  *** re chap. 38 p. 277 pars. 16-17 Praise Jah for His Judgments! ***This will be when the Lamb’s wife will have fully prepared herself—the great majority of the 144,000 having already received their heavenly reward and those still on earth having been finally approved and sealed as faithful ones.

  17

  At this point in Jehovah’s timetable, when the sealing of the 144,000 has reached completion, the angels release the four winds of the great tribulation. (Revelation 7:1-3) First, judgment is executed on harlotlike Babylon the Great. The victorious Christ next moves on quickly to Armageddon to destroy the rest of Satan’s organization on earth and, finally, to abyss Satan and his demons. (Revelation 19:11–20:3) If any anointed ones still survive on earth, they will doubtless enter into their heavenly reward soon after Christ completes his conquest and will join their fellow members of the bride class. Then, at God’s due time, the marriage of the Lamb can take place!
• 

  Mad Dawg

  Blondie, thank you. I deeply appreciate the work that goes into your posts.

  So, if I understand your post correctly, the surviving annointed must either:

  • Go to Heaven in the flesh, or
  • Die faithful in the new system.

  Does the WTS ever specifically adress this? Isn't either case a direct contradiction of what they have taught?

  I have never been a Dub, but have close relatives who are. Doesn't the WTS stridently teach that flesh bodies can't go to Heaven? It seems that I remember reading a WT article stating that Enoch and Elijah must have both died because flesh can't go to Heaven. Or is my memory faulty?

  Again, Thank you,

  MD
• 

  mindmelda

  That's an interesting question, because they do teach that one has to be made a spirit before one can attain heaven.

  But, what's more interesting, at least to me, is that there seems to be a set time for the marriage of the lamb, as it's called in Revelation, or when the "bride" or the church/congregation is made one with Christ in heaven.

  According to WTS doctrine, that is only the few annointed of course, no one else is born of spirit or spirit annointed.

  But, if theyh're on earth, don't they miss the wedding? Because in their timetable, it seems to occur at a specific time, after Armageddon. (I've even read some things where it seems to occur just before, again, sort of a rapture of these ones only, but that was some time ago...60s, 70s?)

  Admittedly, this is a bit of WTS doctrine that goes back and forth. It was originally though that the remnant of the 144,000 still would join with those already in heaven since the invisible presence of the Lord in sort of a "rapture", but then it came to be thought that some of them would remain on earth through the great tribulation, Armageddon and then either die naturally of old age or be taken, raptured in effect, giving up the body, sometime in the New World.

  The thought of giving up the flesh was always there, though. I suppose the thought is that they would not be given the same provision of returning to youth and endless human life like those who embrace that. How cruel! To continue to grow old and die when all around you are becoming young again!

  The "sudden death" idea seems more humane, as it's still thought that one has to give up the flesh to attain heaven, but again, death is death. I suppose they would think it would be quick and painless, like Enoch.

  But, you see the torturousness of WTS doctrines here. To keep that two class system in effect, they have to make all kinds of twisted speculations on these things. Also, whether resurrected humans on earth would have normal sexual and family feelings. Then they have to deal with the speculation by dictating they ignore it.

  I think what the scriptures actually say on the matter is so much less complicated!
• 

  Kosonen

  Here are some scriptures about the resurection to heaven and rapture and the time point:

  51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51,52

  15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

  8 And another, a second angel, followed, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink of the wine of the anger of her fornication!” (.....) 13 And I heard a voice out of heaven say: “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with [the] Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.” Revelation 14:8,13

  So the resurection to heaven according to the Bible begins after the destruction of Babylon. Then a 1260 days, also mentioned as 42 months and 3 and half years will elapse during which the choosen ones if they die or are killed get resurected immediately.

  But then the rest of the choosen ones will not die but they will be changed from being humans to be spirits. Jesus tells when it will happen in following scriptures:

  30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. -Matthew 24:30,31
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  hamsterbait

  This a TYPICAL example of how reading the verse in the bible over and over you get exactly the gist of what Paul is saying.

  Those who are already dead, arise first to be with the Lord. Those still alive when the time comes to join him in heaven are "caught away" to meet the lord in the air, and are "always with the Lord" because as Paul says "we shall not ALL fall asleep in death."

  Yet the WTBTS denies this, because it doesnt fit with the eschatology propounded by Rutherford.

  Personally I can see this anti rapture theology going next - it doesnt mesh with all the current rethinkie stuff going on in the publications... Any thoughts in a new thread??

  HB
• 

  Spook

  "Rapture"

  Why not call them a 3rd class and claim they will live forever on earth as eternal, regressive despots.
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  villabolo

  I asked a member of the anointed that very question in the late 1970s and he said he had no idea.
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  blondie

  The WTS does not teach that anyone goes to heaven in the flesh. They teach that they die physically in the flesh and their personality (whatever) is put in a created spirit body (by God).

  In order for this to happen, the anointed must die faithful (per WTS definition).

  Those who died before 1918 (the year the WTS says that the resurrection of the already dead anointed started) go through a similar process, die physically, then are resurrected into a spirit body.

  Regardless of those points, they have to die and give up their human bodies and lives. From 1918 to today, as jw anointed die, the WTS says that they instantly are raised (no waiting) and given spirit bodies.

  The problem lies in that some of the anointed are quite young today and if the "end" came tomorrow, they would still be alive. The WTS has vacillated on how long they would live after Armageddon and whether they would grow old and die, or be taken prematurely like Enoch is purported to have been.
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  redking

  I always thought that they would just turn into spirit creatures and ascend to heaven like Jesus did because the people could see him when he went up. I think that they would just go to heaven after armaggedon and not have to wait here on earth. I mean God is going to be doing all kind of miraculous things during that time, it won't be too hard to turn a few physical bodies into spiritual ones and let them come up. Or to dispose of the dead bodies left on earth when the spirit or personality is transported into heaven.