College edumacachoon...

by mkr32208 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  mkr32208

  I'm a big fan of college. However I just have to wonder if sometimes the society isn't right about it. I mean are we devaluing the college education with this 'everyone should go' type mentality? It used to be that (from my understanding anyway) that you graduated high school able to do 80% or more of the jobs needed in the US. Certainly Dr's, Lawyers, indian chiefs had to go on to secondary school but things like secretaries, machine, electricians, plumbers, etc... You learned those trades 'on the job' and went off and made a living, supported your family, retired and died. Another cog in the wheel of life!

  Now you can't shine shoes at the airport without a BS! People graduate high school unable to read and write! I mean a significant portion of the population can't read their bloody diploma! So of COURSE they have to go on to college to learn what they should have learned in HS! So when they get out of college (or flunk out) they are RIGHT where they would have been if they had not gone IN only with 25-65K (or more) in student loans! They have no real 'major' so they have no where to go and nothing to do. I mean for crying out loud a college degree is required REQUIRED to drive a fork lift? Seriously? To drive a flippin fork lift?

  And the degree? I got the 'privilege' of helping an adjunct professor last year who lived in AZ to collect and mail papers to him for grading. So even though I wasn't a 'grader' I did sometimes look over the papers... PATHETIC! HORRIBLE! Here's a few (honest to god) paper titles 'What is up with society now an days...' 'Why I thinks that Bush ain't (friggin AIN'T on the title of a college paper) right...' And on and on... This wasn't some podunk school these kids were picking up credits for their JUNIOR year at UNF and UF, two pretty damn good schools!

  I saw a statistic the other day that 47% of the population now has a BS... I saw another statistic math said the average IQ was 96... These two statistics seem very much at odds to me... Sure we need Dr's, sure we need lawyers, we even need master plumbers to run plumbing companies... However do we really need, REALLY need plumbers helpers with BAse and B's? Do we REQUIRE forklift drivers with masters degrees?

  I mean couldn't some of the problem with society be that everyone feels like they need to be a millionaire despite being roughly the IQ of forest Gump? I don't mean to be elitist but come ON! If people would be willing to go to high school come out work for 5-7 years as an apprentice and then make 40-50k a year would all of our manufacturing be in india and china? Sure some things are going to go overseas but there is a DEMAND in the US right now for machinist the average machinist makes 60k a year that's pretty damn good for the US well above the average and NO ONE WILL DO HE JOB! It's hard to get a semi illiterate who has been convinced that he's the next shakespeare to learn to operate a press!

  Don't even get me started on these fly-by-night schools like ITT tech or Concorde or whatever the hell that advertise during Jerry Springer (I work nights it's all that's on when I get home!) they charge 20k (which they are glad to finance!) and you get NOHTING! I mean you get a kick in the balls and a slap in the face and a 20k loan that you can't pay back... I mean go to studentloanjustice.org and look at that crap...

  I don't know, I hope this made sense... I've got to go get some more of whatever this is I'm drinking...
• 

  viva

  This reminds me of an episode of southpark. Rand Marsh was talking about how their had to be "gods" (educated people) and "clauds" (blue collar workers). People who are in no way intelligent are getting colleged educations and that devalues the education. Additionally, it leaves no one to do important tasks. The scholarship system once recruited the great minds to get an education. Now it favors minorities, regardless of qualifications.
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  Watchtower’s constant refrain against advanced formal education is outrageous. Education is the future. But what really hurts my ears is to hear the Witness yokel echoing Watchtower’s message pronounce “education” as “ed-yer-ca-tion.”

  Once I heard a local media person ask a district convention news service rep about this very thing. She asked, “How is an audience to accept advice from a speaker who repeatedly speaks of “ed-yer-ca-tion”?” As straight-faced as you can imagine (read: completely ignorant of the point) the Witness spokesman replied, “Spiritual credentials far outweigh anything we have to gain from [you guessed it!] secular “ed-yer-ca-tion.”

  I placed face in hands and just cried at the ignorance.

  Marvin Shilmer
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  This is a complex problem. You are mixing your problems together (along with WTS).

  A basic education SHOULD be enough to do most jobs. With on-the-job training and apprenticeships, that should be enough for many.
  College SHOULD be for higher learning instead of making sure the students finally get the basics they didn't get in high school.

  Now you can't shine shoes at the airport without a BS!

  Clearly, many places hire the college grad just because he's a college grad.
  I don't have the college degree, but have talked to many who do, and I often feel that they don't have a clue about how to think or what's what in the world.

  Just because there are complex problems doesn't mean that a solution like WTS proposes is the answer. People should be encouraged to think for themselves. People who can handle more education should go get it. Each person can make their own education better by wanting to learn. A basic education doesn't have to be terrible. Parents can help their children advance even if the schools don't- take the kids to the library, museum, forest, farm, read with them, go over math homework together. If basics are covered, even the worst education won't stop a kid/teen/young adult from getting more out of their high school and college years than others around them.

  And if the only way to get a job is to be a college grad, sure the system needs to change, but I would recommend getting the degree until the system actually does change.
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  rebel8

  It used to be that (from my understanding anyway) that you graduated high school able to do 80% or more of the jobs needed in the US.

  The world was a very different place then-much less technology and scientific knowledge.

  I agree NO ONE should be graduated without basic skills/knowledge in language, maths, sciences, history, etc., etc. (An educator recently told me about the No Child Left Behind Law and how destructive it has been. She said all kids are passed regardless of their educational achievement and schools are dropping important subject material in order to focus more attention on test scores. Also border states and schools with legitimate reasons for lower scores unfairly lose their funding.)

  I do think all educable people should at least go to a sort of vocational school to learn a trade.

  I agree some needs for degrees are being inflated; others are being disregarded.

  One example: To be a licensed therapist here, you can get a degree in Social Work. That degree doesn't include courses in psychology or counseling skills unless you happen to choose them as electives. It's all about racism, social welfare policy, and other social sciences. It prepares a person to be a community organizer or discharge planner. You cannot get a license in SW without a Master's Degree, but in reality, a Bachelor's Degree would be more than sufficient to be a community organizer/discharge planner.

  If you have a mental health problem, you get a licensed therapist with a graduate degree. If you have a chemical dependence problem, you get a person with a high school diploma and a certificate, who is probably very ill-prepared and can do harm because of his lack of expertise. Oh, and that certificate I mentioned requires some work experience, but that can be obtained when in prison.
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  Descender

  I don't think most physical labor jobs or fork lift operation type jobs in my area require any college education, nor would a lot of other jobs, such as table waiting, bar tending jobs, clerical, wharehouse, or most jobs in stores like Wal Mart. But then again I see what you're saying because there is now such a glut of college educated people coming into a work force that only has so many jobs to offer. So, in essence, every time there is a position available, there are bound to be at least some college educated people vying for the job, no matter what the job happens to be.

  I work with my dad in a small produce brokerage company and I have a BS in Advertising and Marketing. Do I use the skills I learned specifically for my degree at my job? Very little. Did I learn to think a little deeper through my psychology, sociology, philosophy, and history classes that were required for my degree? Yes. And did what I learned at college help me to finally make a decision to leave the JW's? Definitely. So I think it was worth the student loans I'm still paying.

  My wife works for a fairly large company as their senior marketing manager, she has a degree as well. Because of the economy and because it's common knowledge that if you leave your job in this market that there will be 100 other people willing to step in and take your place for 1/2 the pay, her company increased everyones work load by 1 hour a day and then cut everyone's pay by 20%. The memo went out that they were not hiring, so whenever someone quits, that extra workload is divided up between everyone else in the department. So lately she's been stressed out of her mind. She says that they get applications all the time and all the people applying for basically any position all have bachelor degrees, some with masters and a few with doctorates. Basically you can have the pick of the litter if you have a job to offer, but not many have jobs to offer.

  I know that here at the small business I run with my dad that I could tell one of the local Universities that we are looking for someone with a business degree (one of the top 75 business schools in America) with a 3.0+ GPA, that the starting pay will be $24,000 with a chance at making a percentage of the brokerage on sales made and I would have people lined up at the door by this afternoon.

  College is the new High School. Depending on the college and what the degree is, it might be more along the lines of the new Junior High.
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  John Doe
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  undercover

  The debate over the benefits of higher education are valid in themselves. Not everyone needs college. Not everyone wants to go to college. Many people are successful without college. But a college degree is good on a resume if your job hunting.

  Not going to college doesn't necessarily mean low-paying, factory jobs for all JWs either. I know many JWs that were successful in service oriented jobs. Mechanics, landscaping, even cleaning. I know a couple who became quite wealthy at being their own boss. They didn't need college to be successful.

  What's not valid in the debate is the Society's stance on higher education. The sole purpose of the anti-college stance taken by the Society is to keep control on JW youth as they reach adulthood. Allow them the freedom to experience life on a college campus, make non-JW acquaintances, learn to think for themselves and see that the world is not the evil, Satan controlled den of sin that they were led to believe and they'll question and doubt their upbringing on these matters. If the Society can keep them under their control by never having them leave the controlled atmosphere of meetings and service and JW only association, it is much easier to keep them duped and in line.

  College in many instances is a stepping stone to free and independant thinking and that's what the Society is scared of.
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  daniel-p

  The job market is way more diverse and specialized than what it was when most people on this board were in high school. The jobs young people are applying for these days are not the jobs high schools were preparing them for twenty, or even ten, years ago. This is one reason why college has become increasingly important: because the public secondary school system hasn't adapted fast enough to the changing job market.
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  daniel-p

  The debate over the benefits of higher education are valid in themselves. Not everyone needs college. Not everyone wants to go to college. Many people are successful without college. But a college degree is good on a resume if your job hunting.

  Not going to college doesn't necessarily mean low-paying, factory jobs for all JWs either. I know many JWs that were successful in service oriented jobs. Mechanics, landscaping, even cleaning. I know a couple who became quite wealthy at being their own boss. They didn't need college to be successful.

  What's not valid in the debate is the Society's stance on higher education.

  Absolutely correct. The debate is not that everyone should go to college. That's never been the debate. It's that the Society's objections to higher learning are fallicious.