Can anyone show any examples of Labour anti-semitism?
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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slimboyfat
Are there examples of Labour members being anti-Semitic? I always hear the accusation in the news, but never any examples. It’s weird. What are they actually talking about?
I have no problems with Labour factionalism. It helps the cause of independence as Labour look set for wipeout in Scotland. Corbyn did a u-turn on supporting an independence referendum too.
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24
Question? How Many Hours of Field Service Does it Take
by new boy incurrently, to create one new jehovah's witness convert?.
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slimboyfat
It’s something of a puzzle to me just how ineffective JW preaching is nowadays. You would think that JWs would acquire at least some extra followers just by being so visible publicly and calling on lonely people from time to time. And it’s particlarly puzzling because it seems that their preaching was quite effective at one time. From listening to older members of the congregation, there were many converts to JWs in the 1950s through to the 1970s from the door to door work, a few in the 1980s, and hardly anything since. What went wrong? Their methods haven’t changed all that much, so why is the outcomes so drastically different?
I have a few ideas, but I’d be interested to hear what others think:
1. Society itself has changed and people are just not interested in the Bible any more or joining a church,
2. There is more information available to refute JW teachings these days.
3. JWs have lost their urgency and don’t really believe the end is near.
4. Additionally I think many JWs are fatigued by JW lifestyle and simply not terribly eager to drag others in. I recall a candid comment from someone that they wouldn’t necessarily recommend becoming a JW to anyone not already in it. Subconsciously I wonder how many JWs really feel this way. Very few JWs make great efforts to drag other family members, work colleagues, neighbours and friends, to the KH, as once was more common. So no wonder their efforts to actually convert householders is often halfhearted.
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24
Question? How Many Hours of Field Service Does it Take
by new boy incurrently, to create one new jehovah's witness convert?.
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slimboyfat
I made a post on this and it got lost. Gutted. Ha!
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49
How Long Will YOU Identify As A Jehovah’s Witness?
by minimus insome witnesses realize that they got into a religion and it turned out to be disastrous.
many decide they have to somehow get out.
some do it right away and others take longer.. where are you in your journey?
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slimboyfat
There should be room for recognition that people are at different stages and that everyone’s view is evolving rather than static. The absolute position that the only moral thing to do as an elder is resign immediately upon discovering the “truth” runs into a few problems. Such as how immediate is immediately? The same day, or within a month, or a year? Time to make it a good exit, or exit as soon as possible regardless of the consequences?
And is there any specific point of time when one learns the “truth” anyway? My view of JWs has been a constant evolution for more than two decades. Maybe some people can identify the exact day when their views changed radically, while for others it was a long gradual process with multiple points of acceptance and rejection of previous beliefs along the way.
I struggle to have too much respect for non atheists.But I try.
Wow. I struggle to have respect for people who have no respect for the views of others. Because I find the world such an amazingly complex and inscrutable dwelling place that I find little room for insisting upon or absolutely excluding other possible interpretations of our situation. In fact I find it difficult not to view absolute certainty in such matters as a sign of stupidity or personality problem, but as I say I struggle to keep an open mind, even on this.
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Need Help - How do I refute this???
by HappyBlessedFree inso i was talking with my husband about all the things the organization is doing ie.
hiding pedophiles, lying about what 1914 was etc.
so his response was that the nation of israel had times when they weren’t doing the right thing, but it was still gods chosen organization.. another topic we were talking about was disfellowshipping.
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slimboyfat
It’s not worth getting into particulars of doctrine in my experience.
There are two things that might be worth exploring from his initial response (a very common one, the “wicked king” argument, I have encountered from JW apologists since the first pages on JWs appeared on the web)
1. It’s worth pointing out that the defence he offers for the JW organisation would not be endorsed by the JW organisation itself. Indeed if he promoted the idea that the organisation remains God’s organisation despite wicked leadership, he himself could be DFed for that. Is it logically tenable to defend the organisation using an argument that the organisation itself would reject? Maybe, but not easy.
2. The second thing is, why are JWs not allowed to even discuss these issues openly? JWs may be right that or wrong about 1914, blood, DFing, and whatever else. But why is discussion of these topics not even permitted? He may be able to defend a particular doctrine. But can he defend the idea that it’s wrong to explore and even defend these ideas, without tying himself in knots in the process? Many JW apologists have ultimately come unstuck, not over points of doctrine, but over the climate of fear to even talk about these things. It’s particlarlt difficult to justify, coming from an organisation that in other contexts, promotes scrutiny of other religions and claims its teachings can be proved using evidence and reason.
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Lets face it. Baptism is a lie.
by nowawake14 ini remember when i did.
i was in hs when that happened.
i wasn't even awake yet.
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slimboyfat
I heard a part of a convention where they intereviewed a young man on the advantages of baptism. He said it meant he could get involved in building projects. I didn’t know you had to be baptised to join those. Plus it seemed like a pretty poor reason to get baptised. I’m sure there must have been more to it than that. I hope. But intriguing that whoever organised the programme thought this would appeal to young people.
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Is The Watchtower Society Just Copying The Mormon's Model?
by pale.emperor inwhen i was a faithful jw i was pretty much obsessed with the mormon religion.
to me it was like lord of the rings.
i knew the characters, the history, the events, the joseph smith stories, the religion's history etc etc etc and i long suspected even then that the watchtower society has been copying certain things from the lds church.. for example, the first thing i noticed was when the book study was dropped and family worship was started.
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slimboyfat
pale emperor, I am not as interested in the Book of Mormon and the doctrines as you are. I am more interested in the sociology, history and culture Mormonism. I have attended a number of their services and events including general conference. Overall I can’t say I enjoyed it. It is a pretty controlled atmosphere, with a very American vibe. They are clearly in decline in the UK, because the congregations I visited are supposed to be large congregations, yet there were few local people in attendance. Plus some congregations have closed because of lack of local support. It was mostly missionaries and Chinese students, for some reason, at the services.
Some advantages Mormons have over JWs:
1. They have a much more extensive programme for young people, including early Mormon Bible groups, so I gather. So the hours of contact, among devout young Mormons, is much greater for Mormons than JWs. This is important because it fosters a connection with the church and the culture that the ever-changing world of Watchtower, with its disorienting adjustments, and lack of programme catering for youth and other groups, lacks.
2. Having a large strong family is part of Mormon culture and theology. It gives a sense of mission even in the family and provides a larger number of potential recruits from within. JWs on the other hand have at various times discouraged having children or even getting married. Large JW families tend to be by accident rather than design, and many born in leave the religion anyway.
3. Mormons are much better are providing a sense of purpose and goals for young people. Often they go on mission for two years and return to study, get a career and start a family. This is a very stable and reliable route for young Mormon people into adulthood. JWs on the other hand may have haphazard notions about pioneering or going to bethel, without much emphasis on career. Then as far as bethel, the rug may be pulled from under them, and if a good job doesn’t materialise they have problems starting a family.
4. Mormons have been much better at raising money and investing it for a return. On the other hand Watchtower had a property windfall in Brooklyn, but this was a one off and probably only provided a temporary boost. (Or stay of execution, as the case may be, depending how their financial crisis turns out) Mormons have a wealthier membership, more concentrated in the US, and with a greater tendency to contribute to the church.
5. Mormons have academics and research groups that attempt to defend Mormon beliefs. JWs have nothing comparable to this, and the rare efforts of JW apologists are frowned upon and denigrated by Watchtower. So Mormons with doubts at least have somewhere to turn that will support their view of pre-Columbian history for example. Whereas a JW having doubts about 607/1914 doesn’t have much to fall back on to give it credibility. (I think if JWs dropped 1914, and fostered independent defences of their Bible teachings, they would be in a far stronger position as a result)
Some disadvantages:
1. Mormons make a partcicularly ludicrous set of historical claims that are pretty difficult to defend. Online they are probably taking a greater hammering for their beliefs than JWs. Although former JWs may view JW beliefs as peculiar or falsifiable, they are more like a variation of historical Christianity, based on the Bible, than Mormonism which includes a whole new set of unlikely propositions. Plus they have an embarrassing history of racism, polygamy, dubious characters, and even a massacre, to defend.
2. The Mormon church makes greater efforts to appear mainstream and part of society than JWs, even having a Mormon run for president. But they simultaneously oppose gay marriage which leaves then in a awkward postion. JWs are just as opposed to homosexual activity as Mormons, but they make no attempt to appear mainstream, so their stance doesn’t impact them as badly. The Mormon church may soon face a clear choice between being a mainstream church or continuing to stigmatise homosexuality.
Judging by their declining baptismal figures and stagnating congregation numbers, Mormons appear to have entered decline worldwide. In Europe and the UK they have already been declining for some time. In many ways JWs have outperformed them because JWs have far more congregations, spread far more widely across the globe than Mormons. Plus the higher baptism figures for Mormons are not really comparable to JW baptisms, because Mormons have a much lower threshold for baptism, and many Mormon converts have little or no engagement with the church following baptism. Only around 40% of Mormons are active or turn up for important gatherings like general conference. (49% is a generously high estimate) That means up to 8 million (but probably fewer) Mormons tuning in to hear the prophet twice a year. Compared with around 20 million who turn up for the Memorial, JWs appear to have a larger engaged worldwide membership than Mormons.
So overall JWs have done better than Mormons to date in attracting converts and spreading globally. But Mormons have stronger finances, better connections with society at large, and a stronger culture of retaining large families in the church. This is probably more the case inside the US than overseas, where the culture in the church may be weaker. So overall the Mormon church has had slower growth than JWs, but they have a more solid financial and organisational basis for retaining members in the future. The JW organisation is currently in crisis and struggling to survive.
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Is The Watchtower Society Just Copying The Mormon's Model?
by pale.emperor inwhen i was a faithful jw i was pretty much obsessed with the mormon religion.
to me it was like lord of the rings.
i knew the characters, the history, the events, the joseph smith stories, the religion's history etc etc etc and i long suspected even then that the watchtower society has been copying certain things from the lds church.. for example, the first thing i noticed was when the book study was dropped and family worship was started.
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slimboyfat
Another thing: Mormons have general conference twice a year where the prophet, apostles and quorum of the seventy give televised addresses to the worldwide membership. And in recent years the annual meeting of the Watchtower, including talks by Governing Body members, has been televised for JWs worldwide.
On the other hand, JWs don’t copy Mormons in supporting education, and they could learn a great deal about raising money.
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Ending Bible Study
by Maria Nieves ini have been studying with jehovah's witnesses for approximately two years.
initially, i liked the studies and felt that i was growing closer to god.
however, as the studies progressed, they seemed to become increasingly negative and i did not like what i was being taught.
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slimboyfat
Thank you for the thread. It provides an interesting contrast with the “how to end a Bible Study” video shown at the KH.
The item at the KH was concerned about making “efficient” use of time, plus the idea that stopping the study may apply pressure on the person to “progress”. How the person feels about breaking off a personal connection was not explored as an important consideration.
You on the other hand are concerned about the individuals studying with you, the time they’ve spent on your study, how they will feel about stopping, and even wonder if it may impact them in the congregation when you stop the study.
You should be glad you are strong and wise enough to stop this study at a point where you can accurately assess the human dimensions to such situations without being stifled in the Watchtower mould of evaluating everything in terms of Watchtower ideology and adherence. It’s a dehumanising process, as this particular scenario, viewed from either side, illustrates.
As a practical matter, it is my observation that non-Witness Bible Studies can sometimes maintain good contact with their study conductor and the congregation for years or even decades, just so long as they don’t promote strikingly apostate ideas. It depends on the particular JWs involved, of course, but JWs in general are much more forgiving about non-baptised people coming and going in the KH than baptised members. Sometimes excuses and stories are made for such people that saves face on both sides, such as “they would be in the truth if only they... could stop smoking/were not afraid of the ministry/didn’t face family opposition/weren’t so busy with work” or whatever. It’s a kind of fiction agreed upon by both sides in order to keep friendly contact by explaining the failure to get baptised in terms other than a simple rejection of Watchtower ideology.