Need Help - How do I refute this???

by HappyBlessedFree 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • HappyBlessedFree

    So I was talking with my husband about all the things the organization is doing ie. hiding pedophiles, lying about what 1914 was etc.

    so his response was that the nation of Israel had times when they weren’t doing the right thing, but it was still Gods chosen organization.

    Another topic we were talking about was disfellowshipping. I was saying to him how that word is not even found in the Bible, and the scripture in Gal. points to a wicked man. When you go to the cross reference, it points to Adam and Eve. And that there is nowhere that says disfellowshiping should affect the family arrangement.

    He came back with the scripture of Matt. 10:34 “I came with a sword, to cause division, mother again daughter, father against son.”

    What are your thoughts . . .

  • Finkelstein

    Since Jesus stated to not listen to those who say things that I have not given them to say meaning be aware of false Prophets, the WTS has been an active false prophet since its inception as a publishing house in the late 1800's.

    1 John 4 : 1 .....

    Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    He admonished his true followers to not set a time upon god's own sacred time but what did the WTS./JWS do ? set times such as 1874, 1914, 1925, 1975.

    These sinful apostate men enacted in opposition to Jesus and made their doctrinal teachings above Jesus's, influencing people to be loyal to them

  • jhine

    Yep, false prophets , that could be the way forward . l said that once to a JW lady standing on my doorstep and she literally ran down my drive crying . l think that l hit a nerve .

    Cherry picking verses isn't good ( normally ) but sort out the verses in the Old Testament about false prophets and hit him ( metaphorically ) on the head with them . That nullifies anything that they say .


  • StarTrekAngel

    First demolish the "organization" idea as being from God. Research it.

    The idea of organizing in hierarchical groups came from Moises father in law, likely a Pagan, idolatrous man. God may have not refused the arrangement but it definitely did not come from God.

    In the new testament, the idea of doing "everything by arrangement" is too simplistic of a statement to convert it to the uniformity you find today in the org. Jesus spoke exactly against this because the Jews of the time were more organized like the org of today and they drifted into legalism and dogmatism because of it. You see the same happening today. If Jesus came back today, what would he see?

    When Acts speak of the apostles sending to the elders for a resolution on the blood issue, read it carefully. There is no way to conclude that these elders were the GB of the time beyond reasonable doubt. Put into context, every book of the bible from Acts forward, is centered around the argument between Jews and gentiles. The envoy sent to the elders regarding the blood issue was more of an advisory council between opposing groups. Basically an attempt to have the Jewish leader tell their followers to look the other way in matter of food and diet that were not to become issues for which people left the truth (sounds familiar?). I can expand on this more if it doesn't make sense.

    On the issue of Dfing, again has to be read into context. Like I said before, the core of the gospels after Jesus' death concentrates on two things. a- was Jesus the messiah, and b-Is salvation only for Jews or does it include gentiles whom refuse to adopt Jewish ways. With that in mind, the "division" mentioned in the bible was not between the faithful. The division among family members would come from people who denied Jesus vs those who believed in him. Not among those who committed fornication vs those who did not (the wicked). Certainly if you did commit fornication you would be somewhat isolated but never to the degree that it is seen today in JW land. To put this in perspective, think about the division you see today between the pro-Trumps and the anti-Trumps. Families and friendships have been strained because of these differences. No one has mandated this division as a rule, but you can state it as a matter of fact that these arguments and divisions do take place. In other words, Jesus knew he was going to be a cause for division, but the statement he made never pointed out that a real Christian would embrace this as a test of loyalty. He never said you need to make sure to stay away from people who denied me. If it happens, well that is sad but certainly it is not a requirement.

  • cofty
    his response was that the nation of Israel had times when they weren’t doing the right thing, but it was still Gods chosen organization

    It is the way that followers of every totalitarian regime rationalise the things they know are wrong. Either the evidence becomes too much — and everybody has their own threshold — or something happens personally that makes them wake up. Often is is hurt rather than reason that makes the difference.

  • slimboyfat

    It’s not worth getting into particulars of doctrine in my experience.

    There are two things that might be worth exploring from his initial response (a very common one, the “wicked king” argument, I have encountered from JW apologists since the first pages on JWs appeared on the web)

    1. It’s worth pointing out that the defence he offers for the JW organisation would not be endorsed by the JW organisation itself. Indeed if he promoted the idea that the organisation remains God’s organisation despite wicked leadership, he himself could be DFed for that. Is it logically tenable to defend the organisation using an argument that the organisation itself would reject? Maybe, but not easy.

    2. The second thing is, why are JWs not allowed to even discuss these issues openly? JWs may be right that or wrong about 1914, blood, DFing, and whatever else. But why is discussion of these topics not even permitted? He may be able to defend a particular doctrine. But can he defend the idea that it’s wrong to explore and even defend these ideas, without tying himself in knots in the process? Many JW apologists have ultimately come unstuck, not over points of doctrine, but over the climate of fear to even talk about these things. It’s particlarlt difficult to justify, coming from an organisation that in other contexts, promotes scrutiny of other religions and claims its teachings can be proved using evidence and reason.

  • StarTrekAngel

    Oh and it is true about the times the Jews deviated from what was right. No where does it say that you have to stick with the group during those times. Not then, not in Jesus' time. Who was Job associated with? Was he living with the rest of Moises' people? It can only be assumed.

    During Jesus' time, the apostles went out and found a man that was casting demons in Jesus' name. The apostles came back to Jesus to tell him they got after the man because he was not part of their group. Jesus reprimanded them for doing that. He told them to live him alone. Some call this the case of the "lone exorcist". Put that in modern times and it could be said that Jesus confirmed you do not need to belong to the org in order to be saved. Luke 9:49 "Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.”

    I think there is a VERY GOOD reason that I had never read this passage in 15 years of being a JW

  • Vanderhoven7

    The chosen nation of Israel sometimes did the wrong thing.

    But that is assuming that the WTS has been chosen in 1919 to be the sole channel God's truth and the ark of salvation. All this is beyond what is written.

    In Matthew 10 Jesus is talking bout his followers being rejected, not about his followers rejecting others.

  • StarTrekAngel

    slimboy makes a good point. Often times the org reasons over the "fact" that God allowed Satan to rule the earth to show men the outcome. They compare this to a student challenging a teacher over a lesson. How would the teacher look if he quashed the students questioning instead of allowing him to prove his challenge? If God allowed this, who is the GB to disallow it among JWs?

  • The Fall Guy
    The Fall Guy

    Ask your husband these simple questions:

    "How did you find out that God picked the Bible Students to be His people and Mr. Rutherford and his friends to be the "faithful slave"? Where did you get that information?"

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