I heard a part of a convention where they intereviewed a young man on the advantages of baptism. He said it meant he could get involved in building projects. I didn’t know you had to be baptised to join those. Plus it seemed like a pretty poor reason to get baptised. I’m sure there must have been more to it than that. I hope. But intriguing that whoever organised the programme thought this would appeal to young people.
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
-
13
Lets face it. Baptism is a lie.
by nowawake14 ini remember when i did.
i was in hs when that happened.
i wasn't even awake yet.
-
-
-
22
Is The Watchtower Society Just Copying The Mormon's Model?
by pale.emperor inwhen i was a faithful jw i was pretty much obsessed with the mormon religion.
to me it was like lord of the rings.
i knew the characters, the history, the events, the joseph smith stories, the religion's history etc etc etc and i long suspected even then that the watchtower society has been copying certain things from the lds church.. for example, the first thing i noticed was when the book study was dropped and family worship was started.
-
-
slimboyfat
pale emperor, I am not as interested in the Book of Mormon and the doctrines as you are. I am more interested in the sociology, history and culture Mormonism. I have attended a number of their services and events including general conference. Overall I can’t say I enjoyed it. It is a pretty controlled atmosphere, with a very American vibe. They are clearly in decline in the UK, because the congregations I visited are supposed to be large congregations, yet there were few local people in attendance. Plus some congregations have closed because of lack of local support. It was mostly missionaries and Chinese students, for some reason, at the services.
Some advantages Mormons have over JWs:
1. They have a much more extensive programme for young people, including early Mormon Bible groups, so I gather. So the hours of contact, among devout young Mormons, is much greater for Mormons than JWs. This is important because it fosters a connection with the church and the culture that the ever-changing world of Watchtower, with its disorienting adjustments, and lack of programme catering for youth and other groups, lacks.
2. Having a large strong family is part of Mormon culture and theology. It gives a sense of mission even in the family and provides a larger number of potential recruits from within. JWs on the other hand have at various times discouraged having children or even getting married. Large JW families tend to be by accident rather than design, and many born in leave the religion anyway.
3. Mormons are much better are providing a sense of purpose and goals for young people. Often they go on mission for two years and return to study, get a career and start a family. This is a very stable and reliable route for young Mormon people into adulthood. JWs on the other hand may have haphazard notions about pioneering or going to bethel, without much emphasis on career. Then as far as bethel, the rug may be pulled from under them, and if a good job doesn’t materialise they have problems starting a family.
4. Mormons have been much better at raising money and investing it for a return. On the other hand Watchtower had a property windfall in Brooklyn, but this was a one off and probably only provided a temporary boost. (Or stay of execution, as the case may be, depending how their financial crisis turns out) Mormons have a wealthier membership, more concentrated in the US, and with a greater tendency to contribute to the church.
5. Mormons have academics and research groups that attempt to defend Mormon beliefs. JWs have nothing comparable to this, and the rare efforts of JW apologists are frowned upon and denigrated by Watchtower. So Mormons with doubts at least have somewhere to turn that will support their view of pre-Columbian history for example. Whereas a JW having doubts about 607/1914 doesn’t have much to fall back on to give it credibility. (I think if JWs dropped 1914, and fostered independent defences of their Bible teachings, they would be in a far stronger position as a result)
Some disadvantages:
1. Mormons make a partcicularly ludicrous set of historical claims that are pretty difficult to defend. Online they are probably taking a greater hammering for their beliefs than JWs. Although former JWs may view JW beliefs as peculiar or falsifiable, they are more like a variation of historical Christianity, based on the Bible, than Mormonism which includes a whole new set of unlikely propositions. Plus they have an embarrassing history of racism, polygamy, dubious characters, and even a massacre, to defend.
2. The Mormon church makes greater efforts to appear mainstream and part of society than JWs, even having a Mormon run for president. But they simultaneously oppose gay marriage which leaves then in a awkward postion. JWs are just as opposed to homosexual activity as Mormons, but they make no attempt to appear mainstream, so their stance doesn’t impact them as badly. The Mormon church may soon face a clear choice between being a mainstream church or continuing to stigmatise homosexuality.
Judging by their declining baptismal figures and stagnating congregation numbers, Mormons appear to have entered decline worldwide. In Europe and the UK they have already been declining for some time. In many ways JWs have outperformed them because JWs have far more congregations, spread far more widely across the globe than Mormons. Plus the higher baptism figures for Mormons are not really comparable to JW baptisms, because Mormons have a much lower threshold for baptism, and many Mormon converts have little or no engagement with the church following baptism. Only around 40% of Mormons are active or turn up for important gatherings like general conference. (49% is a generously high estimate) That means up to 8 million (but probably fewer) Mormons tuning in to hear the prophet twice a year. Compared with around 20 million who turn up for the Memorial, JWs appear to have a larger engaged worldwide membership than Mormons.
So overall JWs have done better than Mormons to date in attracting converts and spreading globally. But Mormons have stronger finances, better connections with society at large, and a stronger culture of retaining large families in the church. This is probably more the case inside the US than overseas, where the culture in the church may be weaker. So overall the Mormon church has had slower growth than JWs, but they have a more solid financial and organisational basis for retaining members in the future. The JW organisation is currently in crisis and struggling to survive.
-
22
Is The Watchtower Society Just Copying The Mormon's Model?
by pale.emperor inwhen i was a faithful jw i was pretty much obsessed with the mormon religion.
to me it was like lord of the rings.
i knew the characters, the history, the events, the joseph smith stories, the religion's history etc etc etc and i long suspected even then that the watchtower society has been copying certain things from the lds church.. for example, the first thing i noticed was when the book study was dropped and family worship was started.
-
-
slimboyfat
Another thing: Mormons have general conference twice a year where the prophet, apostles and quorum of the seventy give televised addresses to the worldwide membership. And in recent years the annual meeting of the Watchtower, including talks by Governing Body members, has been televised for JWs worldwide.
On the other hand, JWs don’t copy Mormons in supporting education, and they could learn a great deal about raising money.
-
79
Ending Bible Study
by Maria Nieves ini have been studying with jehovah's witnesses for approximately two years.
initially, i liked the studies and felt that i was growing closer to god.
however, as the studies progressed, they seemed to become increasingly negative and i did not like what i was being taught.
-
-
slimboyfat
Thank you for the thread. It provides an interesting contrast with the “how to end a Bible Study” video shown at the KH.
The item at the KH was concerned about making “efficient” use of time, plus the idea that stopping the study may apply pressure on the person to “progress”. How the person feels about breaking off a personal connection was not explored as an important consideration.
You on the other hand are concerned about the individuals studying with you, the time they’ve spent on your study, how they will feel about stopping, and even wonder if it may impact them in the congregation when you stop the study.
You should be glad you are strong and wise enough to stop this study at a point where you can accurately assess the human dimensions to such situations without being stifled in the Watchtower mould of evaluating everything in terms of Watchtower ideology and adherence. It’s a dehumanising process, as this particular scenario, viewed from either side, illustrates.
As a practical matter, it is my observation that non-Witness Bible Studies can sometimes maintain good contact with their study conductor and the congregation for years or even decades, just so long as they don’t promote strikingly apostate ideas. It depends on the particular JWs involved, of course, but JWs in general are much more forgiving about non-baptised people coming and going in the KH than baptised members. Sometimes excuses and stories are made for such people that saves face on both sides, such as “they would be in the truth if only they... could stop smoking/were not afraid of the ministry/didn’t face family opposition/weren’t so busy with work” or whatever. It’s a kind of fiction agreed upon by both sides in order to keep friendly contact by explaining the failure to get baptised in terms other than a simple rejection of Watchtower ideology.
-
49
How Long Will YOU Identify As A Jehovah’s Witness?
by minimus insome witnesses realize that they got into a religion and it turned out to be disastrous.
many decide they have to somehow get out.
some do it right away and others take longer.. where are you in your journey?
-
-
slimboyfat
I’d like to be a Reform Jehovah’s Witness, like how you get Reform Jews. The problem is few if any, either inside or outside the JWs, appear to be interested. But this might change!
-
108
New Upcoming Changes - No More Publisher Record Cards & Reporting Hours
by thedepressedsoul inpublisher record cards and reporting hours will be going away.
.
coming soon.. made this post 4 years ago, it happened - https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/24020002/kingdom-consolidation-sales-coming-reliable-source.
-
-
slimboyfat
careful that sounds like a very plausible explanation why Watchtower dropped charges - in order to avoid tax, because collecting tax would open them up to external scrutiny. I suppose that means they felt they had things they’d rather avoid having to justify or explain. That seems likely because an organisation so accustomed to secrecy may become complacent and become embroiled in dubious practices of various sorts. For instance external scrutiny may reveal that certain individuals or companies benefit financially from their relationship with Watchtower in ways that may appear unfair or borderline corrupt. Or other aspects of their operations they’d rather keep hidden I can’t even imagine, may be involved.
Even so, if their primary motive was to avoid the scrutiny that paying taxes would invite, I still think it is fair to say that Watchtower probably didn’t expect, and were unpleasantly surprised by the extent to which income from literature fell after they stopped charging. This is demonstrated by the tone of disappointment in the letter of 1990/1 about the fall in donations, and by the progressive cuts from the mid 1990s. Because for the first five years or so Watchtower continued publishing and expanding as before. It was as if they didn’t expect the change to result in a drop in income and they expected to carry on as before. It was around 1996 when cuts began, with one of the first signals being the switch from hardcover to paperback books. So presumably they coasted for five years or so on the basis of their accumulated funds. Then they sllowly began to tighten their belts in the late 1990s, until cutbacks reached a frenzy in the late 2010s.
I totally agree that stopping recording and collecting hours would be a hugely significant change, striking at the heart of JW culture, and it would be a much bigger than dropping the book study or the district overseer was.
And I agree there is a good possibility that the OP may have half a story correct, or the rumour has been slightly distorted at some stage, such that hours may be collected differently rather than abandoned altogether. In fact we can probably agree this is the most likely explanation, if there is substance to the rumour to begin with.
And yet, and yet. It may not be likely, but it does seem just about possible that the OP may be correct, and this accurately foretells the end for JWs recording hours altogether. It would be such a tremendous and course changing event in the history of JWs that it is just too tempting to avoid contemplating what the implications would be.
Plus as I mentioned earlier, there does seem to be good internal logic that might prompt a change to stop collecting hours. If the roots and justification for collecting hours traditionally invoked the need for the organisation to appraise and plan their print publishing operations worldwide, then the question arrises why is it necessary to keep collecting this information when print publications are increasingly marginal to their activity? We know that the data on preaching is used to regulate the boundary of the community and to establish status within it, but rarely if ever is this stated so bluntly as a goal in Watchtower literature. So it is just about possible, if admittedly unlikely, that Watchtower will recognise that dwindling print activity logically indicates that collecting preaching data is no longer necessary or justified.
Another occasional justification that has been offered by Watchtower for collecting the data is that it encourages the brothers to be able to see the growth figures in their own country and others. This would not be possible, Watchtower has argued, unless everyone plays their part and reports their preaching activity. However as numbers start to decline this is unlikely to be a source of encouragement much longer.
So I agree that stopping collecting hours is unlikely, yet if would be such a significant change, not to mention opportunity for all sorts of reforms in how JWs operate and JW culture generally.
-
89
Babies Who Are Not Dead From An Abortion
by minimus ina woman gets an abortion.
the baby is supposed to die because of the abortion but doesn’t.
should that living baby be put to death or should the baby be given medical help to survive?.
-
-
slimboyfat
On second thoughts I think I’ll hold my counsel on this!
-
108
New Upcoming Changes - No More Publisher Record Cards & Reporting Hours
by thedepressedsoul inpublisher record cards and reporting hours will be going away.
.
coming soon.. made this post 4 years ago, it happened - https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/24020002/kingdom-consolidation-sales-coming-reliable-source.
-
-
slimboyfat
The effect of dropping the charge for the literature is very obvious from what followed in the organisation. I find it slightly odd the point even needs to be argued.
The fact that income from literature dropped considerably when the charges stopped is shown by the progressive downscaling from hardbacks to paperbacks, to fewer pages and less often, to discontinuing yearbooks, calendars and practically everything else.
The organisation scaled down its literature because the “donation arrangement” ruined their previously profitable enterprise. They didn’t scale down because contributions form the literaute was increasing under the new regime. That’s nonsensical. If contributions for the literature increased, then the incentive would have been to produce more literature, not less!
The fact that we have an internal letter that mentions this decrease in income in the early 1990s merely confirms what is already obvious by their actions: that dropping the literature charge was a financial disaster for Watchtower.
Incidentally, and almost redundant given all the other evidence, it’s also worth mentioning that in previous discussions of this topic, a number of contributors to the forum who were elders during the period have confirmed that donations following 1990 were far lower than the previous income through charges for the literature.
-
108
New Upcoming Changes - No More Publisher Record Cards & Reporting Hours
by thedepressedsoul inpublisher record cards and reporting hours will be going away.
.
coming soon.. made this post 4 years ago, it happened - https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/24020002/kingdom-consolidation-sales-coming-reliable-source.
-
-
slimboyfat
redvip there was an internal letter within a year of dropping charges in 1990 that stated income from literature was down. Every downscale in literature since then indicates the trend continued.
Don't forget that the bulk of Watchtower profit came from selling special and luxury items to JWs: insight books, deluxe Bibles, tapes, videos, yearbooks, Kingdom Interlinear, concordance, calendars, daily text, bound volumes, Bible stories book, individual magazine subscriptions...
I think we tend to forget just how huge Watchtower publishing used to be, and just how many items they sold to JWs, before you even begin to factor sales to the public.
The profit on each item may not have been massive, but they certainly weren’t selling at a loss, and with a captive market of millions it's easy to see how Watchtower we’re rolling in the money until the 1990s when the cutbacks began.
Any income prompted by donations for the dwindling literature today is negligible by comparison.
-
108
New Upcoming Changes - No More Publisher Record Cards & Reporting Hours
by thedepressedsoul inpublisher record cards and reporting hours will be going away.
.
coming soon.. made this post 4 years ago, it happened - https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/24020002/kingdom-consolidation-sales-coming-reliable-source.
-
-
slimboyfat
Don’t doubt the ability of the GB to make decisions that are against their interests.
The decision to stop charging for literature in 1990 was a monumental unforced error and a gross overreaction to having to pay taxes.
They could have chosen to pay the tax and keep charging for the literature and they would be in a far better position today.
So it’s entirely possible they will stop recording time for fairly trivial reasons (overreacting to data concerns, or worries about publishing declines) and it have dramatic unintended consequences for the organisation.