Emiliano,
You said and correctly:
"that is God's gift and calling and verse 29 says they are IRREVOCABLE!"
But, Jehovah does not make irrevocable promises to disobedient humans. When he told natural Israel in Exodus 19:6: "And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom and priest and a holy nation," it was conditional. Verse 5 says: "And now IF you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all other people because the whole earth belongs to me." Israel did not prove itself to be obedient, which is why Paul said at Romans 9:27: "Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved." No, Jehovah could not save the entire nation and therefore had the message of salvation given to the gentiles who did respond and so completed the nation of Israel. Due to this situation, Paul could say at Romans 9:6,7: "However, it is not as though the word of God failed. For not all who spring from Israel are really "Israel." Neither because they are abraham's seed are they all children,...."
Why would Jehovah 'dull their sensibilities' or harden their hearts unless they were disobedient? Sure they will be resurrected, but it will not be to any sort of glory but to certain condemnation.
Certainly Jehovah's irrevocable promises will be fulfilled upon 'Israel,' the true seed of Abraham, those who "adhere to the faith of Abraham." (Romans 4:16)
bjc2012
JoinedPosts by bjc2012
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117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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bjc2012
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71
God's will or free will?
by thinker ini've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.
if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.
think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.
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bjc2012
Thinker,
Yes, the future has already been determined by Jehovah. Can any human change that future? If not, then human exercise of free will encompasses only his future in relation to what has been predetermined by Jehovah. And that is as the Bible says, 'choose life or choose death.' What other choices are there? These were the only choices that Adam was given. Do you have some other biblical definition of free will?
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71
God's will or free will?
by thinker ini've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.
if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.
think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.
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bjc2012
Thinker,
The Bible deals with what Jehovah accepts or does not accept from those who worship him. Now, if you are a worshipper of Him then how you live your daily life is somewhat regulated but not all things. Ones every waking moment is not under scrutiny all day every day. An individual can still make choices about many things in his life. I don't know of any verse in the bible where humans are told that they can do anything that they want without suffering any consequences. If you are willing to accept the consequences, then you can do whatever you feel big enough to do. Exercise your free will. The one outstanding thought in the Bible is that humans will not offer any kind of worship that they please and it be accepted by Jehovah. He and He alone makes the decision of what he will accept and what he will not. This is what the bible is all about. We do not have free will in this matter other than what Moses stated in Deuteronomy 30:19, 20: "I do take the heavens and earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you many keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days...."
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Is Jesus the "lowliest...."
by SixofNine inthe reasoning book says, " the bible's description of jesus shows that he was indeed "the lowliest one of mankind".
it references phil.2: 7,8 and matt.
11:28-30 to prove it.. i've never thought of jesus as the "lowliest of mankind", and those scriptures dont' indicate to me that i ought to.
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bjc2012
Hi SixofNine,
The dream described in Daniel chapter 4 does appear to be about rulership, that is, rulership that is under the control of the Almighty God. It deals with more than the relatively short reign of Nebuchadnezzar and his successors. The question then would be does this dream have anything to do with the kingdom of Israel as the WTS claims.
Jehovah did make a promise to David that one of his seed would sit on the throne ‘to time indefinite’ and that he would have subjects from ‘sea to sea’ and from ‘the river to the ends of the earth.’ (See 2 Samuel 7:10-16; Psalms 72:8-11) This promise has yet to be fulfilled as it concerns an earthly government not a heavenly one. These verses could very well apply to the tearing down of, but leaving the rootstock and banding it, and the subsequent resprouting of the kingdom of Israel that would fulfill these prophesies.
The tree was banded using two different types of metals, iron and copper, the significance of which I believe can be explained by considering the vision in Daniel chapter 2. In this vision, an image is described using four types of metal: gold, silver, copper, and iron. I think we can safely say that the gold represented Babylon’s kings. Babylon was the kingdom Jehovah used to cut down the kingdom of Israel. The silver represents Medo-Persia, the kingdom that was used to free Israel from captivity to Babylon. Although they were allowed the freedom to restore true worship and rebuild the temple, they were not allowed to reestablish a kingdom. They were continually dominated by the silver part of the image. The kingdom of Israel was to be further held down by the copper and iron bands.
The copper is said to represent the Grecian Empire begun by Alexander the Great and the iron, the Roman Empire. Now I question that the iron represents the Roman Empire only. No one can accuse Briton (UK) of being weak as is described by the feet and toes of iron and clay mixed. They ruled an empire such that it was said that ‘the sun never set on the British Empire.’ They were truly iron-like. And the same can be said for America. I therefore conclude that the legs of iron represent the Roman as well as the British/American Empires. If I am correct, then when the kingdom represented by the feet and toes ‘partly of iron and partly of clay’ emerges, then the bands would have been removed from the rootstock. Daniel 2:44 will have its fulfillment. Many scholars believe that this combination of iron and clay represent a federation of nations that join together but do not have the toughness of iron to rule with the strength of the previous kingdoms. In fact, if the ten toes have any meaning, then we might expect there to be a federation of 10 or more nations joining together to form a kingdom, but these nations will not prove to be ‘sticking together as iron is not mixing with molded clay.’ As Daniel describes it, ‘it will be partly strong and partly fragile.’ I say 10 or more because Daniel 7:8 shows a “small horn coming in among them and there were three of the first horns that were plucked up from before it.”
In harmony with your suggestion that ‘the lowliest one’ does not refer to Jesus, I checked Strong’s Concordance and found that the word translated ‘lowliest’ means ‘basest.’ And I certainly agree that you could never apply the word ‘base’ to a perfect man as Jesus had been. You’d have to look elsewhere for an application other than the application to Nebuchadnezzar himself.
bjc
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75
Who's to blame?
by ozziepost inwhen viv mouritz , former branch coordinator in australia, addressed the special meeting of sydney and surrounding area congregations at the superdome last weekend, he blamed the young witnesses who were leaving "the truth" for the drop in numbers in australia.. at the service meeting this week in one sydney congregation it was announced by a bethel elder that the elders have been told (as if they didn't know already!
) that 2,000 have left "the truth" in the past two years in australia.
this typical congregation of 120 publishers has lost 19 inactive since 1999.. the march 2001 issue of kingdom ministry (australian edition) gives the number of publishers for december as 58,426, pioneers 3,315 and 19 baptized.. in dec '98 there were 58,706 pubs,and in dec '99 there were 58,000.. with 1,600-1,800 being baptized each year, there is indeeed a 2,000 shortfall.. so, who's to blame?
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bjc2012
Larc,
I believe that you are describing 'philia,' brotherly affection, and not 'agape.'
bjc
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75
Who's to blame?
by ozziepost inwhen viv mouritz , former branch coordinator in australia, addressed the special meeting of sydney and surrounding area congregations at the superdome last weekend, he blamed the young witnesses who were leaving "the truth" for the drop in numbers in australia.. at the service meeting this week in one sydney congregation it was announced by a bethel elder that the elders have been told (as if they didn't know already!
) that 2,000 have left "the truth" in the past two years in australia.
this typical congregation of 120 publishers has lost 19 inactive since 1999.. the march 2001 issue of kingdom ministry (australian edition) gives the number of publishers for december as 58,426, pioneers 3,315 and 19 baptized.. in dec '98 there were 58,706 pubs,and in dec '99 there were 58,000.. with 1,600-1,800 being baptized each year, there is indeeed a 2,000 shortfall.. so, who's to blame?
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bjc2012
Xandit,
Maybe they will look at the word that is translated as love in this verse and discover that it is 'agape' and since they are certain that christendom does not show this kind of love, they may discover that it does apply to them. Now what?
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Hey! Wait a Second!!!
by SixofNine insomething just hit me.. you know how witnesses love to remind you that the early christian congregations had problems, sometimes even big problems, whenever modern day problems and inconsistancies are brought to their attention?.
as much as my gut and heart hate the glibness and triteness of that, it is difficult to argue against.
but i just thought of a key difference.
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bjc2012
Sixofnine,
You should know that the reason the leadership says that the first century christians had worse problems than the JWs do today is to cover over the fact that they do not have spirited anointed leaders as did those first century christians. There was no problem that the first century leadership could not solve. These men were truly spirit-anointed and led by spirit. Consider Paul's words to Timothy at 1 Timothy 1:6, which reads: "For this very cause I remind you to stir up like a fire the gift of God which is in you through the laying of my hands upon you." A real spirit-appointed/anointed leader! Now how many of the so-called spirited-appointed leaders today can make this claim? In fact, which one of the GB can show that he is truly anointed by exhibiting some/one of the gifts of the spirit that Paul speaks of at 1 Corinthians 12:4-11? I have seen no such evidence, maybe someone else has, I don't know. Certainly, not one of them has shown that he has the gift to interpret prophesy. If these men are anointed, we should have ample evidence of this as we are expected to follow their every word!
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Hello...Hello...Hello (cont) #3
by Prisca inwell someone had to do it, so it might as well be prim & proper prisca to do the honors in the sex forum...... .
this thread is for all newbies to introduce yourselves.
whatever you feel happy to reveal about yourself.
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bjc2012
DannyBear,
Yes, he was a man of strength, principles, and had real backbone. It wasn't until I reached adulthood did I realize what he had really accomplished. I would love to convey your compliment but he died in 1992. We really do miss him.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
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97
Hello...Hello...Hello (cont) #3
by Prisca inwell someone had to do it, so it might as well be prim & proper prisca to do the honors in the sex forum...... .
this thread is for all newbies to introduce yourselves.
whatever you feel happy to reveal about yourself.
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bjc2012
DriveslikeJehu,
You are very wrong about the reason for the change on the higher education policy of the WTS. They do not care one bit about whether the rank and file JW can support themselves. If they did, they would not have taken away the small donations that their pioneers could get from placing the magazines and other literature. No, their main concern is to change their image. They are now seen as a group that is 80% uneducated and poor people cannot make the big donations. So if they want to attract the big spenders like doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc., they have to be seen as a religion that supports their members getting college degrees. Hence the policy change on higher education. And I do know how strongly they were against going to college because my father went up against them in order to send us to college. His view was that the GB could not tell him how to run his family. Of course, he was censored but he did not care. In fact, he even decided to complete his college education as he had married early. The elders in his congregation took this personally and they refused to recognize him as a competent brother in that congregation. They would give a sister a part rather than let him handle it. But he went right on and completed his PhD program and when he began making lots of money, all was forgiven. He became an elder and was such until he left the organization in 1991. Incidentally, he was baptized in 1948. So, forget this talk about it being easier to make a living in 1950's or 60's because it is not true. It has always been hard to make a living if you were not qualified for anything but janitorial work.
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Is God real to you?
by alias inin a recent topic someone mentioned how much they have drifted from god since they "left the jw's.".
as someone brought up in the org (inactive for several years)i have found this to be similiar in my case.
i don't know how much i believe the fan/plug analogy (remember that in the live forever book?
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bjc2012
Alias,
My take on this matter of whether we had a relationship with Jehovah while in the organization is this: We really never cultivated a close relationship with Jehovah because we believed that the WTS was doing this for us. So we read exactly what they told us to, even with bible reading. Bible reading is really second to their publication in spite of what they say. If you follow their schedule of reading through the Bible, it would take you seven years to complete the Bible. That's a little ridiculous when you consider that you can read it from cover to cover in six months without it taking all of your free time. I believe that's the main problem, we did not put reading the bible as our first priority. You cannot cultivate a relationship with Jehovah if you do not do as we are admonished at Psalms 1: 1-3, which reads: "Happy is the man that has not walked in the counsel of the wicked ones, and in the way fo sinners has not stood, and in the seat of ridiculers has not sat. But his delight is in the law of Jehovah and in his law he reads in an undertone day and night." I would think, as verse 3 shows, that strength is derived from reading the bible daily not the Watchtower publications. These publications are helpful but only in a secondary sense.
I have found that since I left the organization and have continued to follow the Psalmist's advice that I have not lost contact with Jehovah and, in fact, I believe that I have a much stronger relationship than I've ever had with Him and I do still read Watchtower publications even now. They have done a lot of good research that I've found invaluable in my study of the Bible.
Hope this helps.