Posts by bjc2012

posted

19
MDS keeps his promise -- "Great War",...
by bjc2012 in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
(daniel 10:1 niv) .

" -- isaiah 49:1, 6 .

but jesus did.
bjc2012

Logical,
Actually, in a sense you and I are in the "same boat", in that we must accept MDS as God's Modern Day Servant, God's Modern Day Messiah, God's Messiah for our times.
Here is the simply way I look at this situation, since I've faced it for over a decade now.
If I am still in the "christian" covenant, and DON'T NEED a phony Scapegoat arrangement, because Jesus is still there for me, then why I am soooo in the dark as to what the Bible means. And not only me, but everyone I know, and have talked to and listened to who are supposed to be "christian" religions and organizations.
They can teach me nothing, just as you cannot.
I have another friend on CC board, who goes by the name of "JoSalem". He is quite an intellectually endowed person and seriously devout servant of Jehovah. I value his opinion. He has "studied" MDS' writings for many years now. He and I see it the same way. Its Jah's Will, and there is nothing we can do about it.
Jehovah can change "messiahs as often as He wishes, and there is nothing we can do about it.
One person said to me, they wondered if recognizing MDS was an act of "disloyalty" to Jesus. I said, not to recognize MDS is an act of DISLOYALTY to Jehovah God, and that's what counts.
I hope "JoSalem" will post here some. Perhaps, if he does then you can talk with him. He mainly likes to post over on CC Board.
The big problem I have with IGNORING MDS is this: Every so called "christian" I've met, seen on TV are, I can easily prove, little old me now remind you, can prove this people are COMPLETE IDIOTS. They have no "sense" of what right and wrong is. They know nothing about the Bible. They know nothing about the future. They know nothing about bible prophecy. They know nothing of Covenants. They are fools that even I, can prove wrong.
And then I start thinking, who on earth taught me about the Bible being a "para" [beside] "digm" [example] with double messiahs, 2 kingdoms (earthly, heavenly) concepts? Who do you know can point a person to the celebration of "Pentecost" and show you that the priest "waved" before Jehovah 2 "lambs" and 2 "loaves". A double concept. The WTS taught me they "waved" the 2 loaves only. That's all I got from them. And I was up there with them for close to 40 years as a baptized "christian". -- Lev. 23:19, 20
Who is the only one that taught me these things. I will give you one guess. Only MDS, my friend. And this has been going on for me, for over 10 years.
Hmmmmmmmmm.
I'll tell you what, you believe what you want, but for me, I'll take my chances with MDS, instead of all of this blundering, massive IGNORANCE that I keep seeing from these wonderful "christian" folks.
peace my brother,
bjc
Edited by - bjc2012 on 29 October 2002 17:27:55
19
MDS keeps his promise -- "Great War",...
by bjc2012 in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
(daniel 10:1 niv) .

" -- isaiah 49:1, 6 .

but jesus did.
bjc2012

Logical,
You ask a very good question.
In your case, since you are unbaptized, you never had an "opportunity" to be a part of the "christian" covenant, since you never under went water baptism. A requirement under that arrangement.
In our day, once the nation of spiritual "Israel" VIOLATED the Christian Covenant, Israel was left in "apostasy" and at enmity with Almighty God. The blood of Jesus was not to be used to get the apostate nation out of this situation, in God's eyes. -- Hebrews 10:26
Today, "Israel" needs another "covenant" arrangement. The "Servant" comes with a "covenant". (Isa. 42:6; 49:8) God uses the Scapegoat arrangement, which is God's provision for this situation, as He foresaw long ago and had the prophets speak of it.
So then, all and that is all, and not only you, that wish to be a part of Newly Restored "Israel" mentioned Ezekiel chapters 40-48, will indeed, recognize and fully accept this Scapegoat Covenant Arrangement. All will be expected to recognize this arrangement as the one God has ordained, since Jehovah God is only One in the universe that we worship and understand that HIS WILL must be adhered to at all times. Therefore, proper prayer to Him, must from henceforth, must recognize and acknowledge this arrangement as God has ordained and instituted. The MDS, the Mystery Chieftain of Ezekiel 44:1-3 then, becomes the "scapegoat", that is "atoned for" as shown at Leviticus 16:10. Since the "scapegoat" or "live goat" is "atoned for" as Lev. 16:10 shows, then properly he cannot picture Jesus Christ, a perfect man who was completely free from sin.
Also, Ezekiel 45:22 shows, the Mystery "Chieftain" also, recognizes the sacrifice of Jesus, which makes himself as well as the nation continually indebted to Jesus and what Jesus' blood accomplished for God. If this "Chieftain" were Jesus, no sin offering would be necessary for himself as shown in the verse. Therefore, we are shown In the case of the "Chieftain", the blood of Jesus was used to "justify" him or "declare him righteous" which brought him to a "guiltless" state before God, so that God could view him as a worthy "sacrifice" for the nation of Israel. -- Acts 13:38, 39; Romans 4:6-8; 5:1,2, 9, 10, 18
So, good question!
bjc
Edited by - bjc2012 on 29 October 2002 15:1:36
Edited by - bjc2012 on 29 October 2002 15:10:49
Edited by - bjc2012 on 29 October 2002 15:29:38
19
MDS keeps his promise -- "Great War",...
by bjc2012 in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
(daniel 10:1 niv) .

" -- isaiah 49:1, 6 .

but jesus did.
bjc2012

Logical,
MDS claims that Christ's ransom has no effect now. This is a LIE. MDS claims that HE is now the way to JAH. This is a LIE. This is the KEY to understanding just exactly what type of prophet MDS truly is.
MDS claims to be a "christian", the "man in union with Christ" who heard words that are "unlawful for a man to speak". (2 Cor. 12:2-4) He claims to a "christian", who is a member of the "Christian Covenant", the "everlasting covenant" started by Jesus in the first century. By his ministry, he claims he will certainly "bring honor" to Jesus, as Jesus promised in John 16:14. He teaches, that as long as he is alive on earth, the "christian" covenant is alive, thru him. MDS claims to be a "servant" of Jesus, a slave of Jesus. Thus, he does not see that his ministry is against Jesus in any way, but instead shows HIS ACTUAL OBEDIENCE TO JESUS, his Lord and Savior.
Therefore, MDS prays IN THE NAME OF JESUS each and every time he approaches Jehovah in prayer. (I have personally heard him pray out loud.)
However, MDS teaches Jehovah Witnesses have VIOLATED the "christian covenant" (the one they entered in 1931 when they took God's name upon themselves and began preaching it) by a overt practice of idolatry, and profane ["foreigner"] temple contamination. -- Ezekiel 43:7,8; 44:6-12
I feel, MDS' "testimony" and the and "evidence" we have at our disposal, show the actual NEED for this powerful arrangement on God's part, because what he speaks of matches the description we find in Ezekiel 43:7,8, 20-27 about a future temple of God's making, and the reasons thereof for that Temple.
bjc
Edited by - bjc2012 on 29 October 2002 12:14:48
Edited by - bjc2012 on 29 October 2002 15:17:19
19
MDS keeps his promise -- "Great War",...
by bjc2012 in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
(daniel 10:1 niv) .

" -- isaiah 49:1, 6 .

but jesus did.
bjc2012

Blondie,
I'll let him say, who he is.
His mailbox is "open".
Beyond that, I'd say read Jeremiah 23:5,6 which tells the name he shall be known as worldwide. The initials are: Y.O.R.
bjc
19
MDS keeps his promise -- "Great War",...
by bjc2012 in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
(daniel 10:1 niv) .

" -- isaiah 49:1, 6 .

but jesus did.
bjc2012

TR,
A website was up for years. In fact, MDS put up two different websites. And as far as I know, a third one one is coming.
As far as the book goes, there are many on this discussion board that have "paid" nothing for the book, but got it free including postage, in some cases overseas.
MDS feels JW.COM has the largest reservoir of his writings, among jw discussion boards. A considerable amount. Therefore he feels the message has been "proclaimed" sufficiently. The concept and his teaching is known. The 2-messiah, 2-kingdom (earthly/heavenly) paradigm [para or "beside" -- digm or "example"] concept.
My opinion: I believe if you had shown sufficient, sincere interest in his message, knowing MDS, he probably would have given you a book and paid the postage. My sense is that since the book/message means NOTHING to you, logically you want the book/message for NOTHING. Right?
bjc
Edited by - bjc2012 on 29 October 2002 11:14:40
Edited by - bjc2012 on 29 October 2002 21:13:0
19
MDS keeps his promise -- "Great War",...
by bjc2012 in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
(daniel 10:1 niv) .

" -- isaiah 49:1, 6 .

but jesus did.
bjc2012

THE "GREAT WAR" AHEAD -- OUR FUTURE! (Daniel 10:1 NIV)
PLEASE NOTE: On this thread, I will comment from time to time, as current events unfold, for the benefit of mystery "Israel", God's Name People. The ones whom the scriptures reveal must repent or be severely disciplined. Remember, I will comment from time to time, intermittently, upon occasion as the need may be.
Hi all:
MDS wrote what you will find below, October 22, 2000 on jw.com, exactly 2 years ago.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=1096&site=3&page=2
Back then, MDS stated he would provide "key" information and become our "guide" for the future for all interested parties. Mankind's guide, for all lovers of "peace". He directed attention to Isaiah 49:1-7 which shows only one man, will be used by God to provide such information. When all is said and done, this one will fulfill the contents of John 16:13, 14. He would "guide" us, just as God said before hand, "INTO ALL TRUTH", and would "DECLARE THE THINGS COMING", the future, so that all would know exactly who he is. If MDS truly is that person, the future itself will prove it, and it would prove that God gave him "all the truth". He would become at that time, the "Spirit of The Truth" for all mankind, at the end of a special 14 year period of particular spiritual "enlightenment", granted to mystery "Israel" and all interested parties. A Period that terminates MDS say, by the Spring of 2010. At that time, by that time, MDS predicts he will have become "a light to all nations", so that God's "salvation may come to be to the extremity of the earth." -- Isaiah 49:1, 6
MDS said he was chosen to become the mystery "chieftain", who is the only one allowed to "eat bread", spiritual "bread", holy "bread", in the presence of the Almighty, in the "east gate" before the Great Jehovah, or Yehowah [yah--o-ah], the Creator of the Universe. This "temple" is a future temple of God's making, one that God accepts, but one that wayward "Israel" must not pollute, as they had in the previous one, by exalting their "kings" [their so-called "Governing Body"] to parity with God Almighty. They unwittingly put "their threshold with God's threshold, and their doorpost beside God's doorpost". Thus, unwittingly, they committed IDOLATRY before the Almighty. They, following their leaders, committed a NATIONAL SIN. Thus, the worship is NOT acceptable to God. The "copper altar" for burnt offerings must be "purified", re-installed, before their worship would be acceptable to Jehovah God again. -- Ezekiel 43:7,8; 20-27; 44:1-3; Lev. 4:3, 13
For the foregoing reasons, he comes with a "covenant" from God. A covenant of "peace", and "indefinitely lasting covenant" of peace, that could exist between and God and His repentant people. Still, a covenant that they know nothing about, as of now. (Isa. 42:6; 49:8; Ezekiel 34:25; 37:23-28)
This one, must prove to be the "Son of Man", that has to be "REVEALED" [Greek: "apokalupto" (apocalyse), uncovered, disclosed], in these last days to the world at large. (Luke 17:30) Really, when we stop and think about it, the immediate coming of Jesus Christ would not prove to a true "uncovering" in our age, since countless millions, billions expect that already. Further, Jesus Christ does not need to be "revealed" to anyone, today. The whole world has heard about him and his return, a sizeable portion of that world are expecting his imminent return. However, no one is expecting the coming of "Elijah", the one in whom Jesus said would "come first" and "restore ALL things". No, they are NOT expecting that future bible figure. And mystery "Israel", is not either. This is because mystery "Israel" could never see the need for such a spiritual "restoration" for itself. It could never ever, admit such a complete and utter failing on their part, as a nation before God. But Jesus did. For these reasons, the "world" cannot "receive" him, because they recognize [behold] him not, and "know" him not, scripturally speaking. They know nothing of his foretold coming. -- Matt. 17:10, 11; Luke 17:30; John 14:17
In this way, he has been "hidden" as a "polished arrow" before mankind. He was "concealed" in God's own "quiver"; hidden in the "shadow of God's Hand". -- Isaiah 49:2
So because of this, right now, Jehovah's Witnesses do not understand what this means for them. But, beginning with the advent of the "Great War" of Daniel 10:1 (NIV), which is now before us, with that GREAT EVENT, the ride of the "fiery-colored horse" that is allowed to "take peace away from the earth," the "safeguarded ones of Israel" will begin to understand what MDS is talking about. -- Isaiah 49:6; Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:2-4
The claim of MDS, is no small claim, no "trivial matter". (Isa. 49:6)
MDS [Modern Day Servant] would have the God-ordained mission to "raise up the tribes of Jacob", raise them up, so that "Israel may be gathered" to God, in peace. They must be "raised up" because of being in a spiritually lowered condition before God. So the "Servant" must "bring Israel back" to God. He willingly performs this service for God, and thus becomes the "Servant", the Modern Day Servant of our time. The one foretold in scripture and prophecy, to come during our time. (Isa. 49:5, 6) By considering this, this shows Israel fallen from God's grace and favor, due to bad conduct, false worship and idolatry in God's eyes. They are so low, a "land of decoration" rather than a "Mountain of Decoration". (Daniel 11:41, 45) Therefore, they need a special "helper" from God. Therefore, he becomes the foretold "Shiloh", the one who was promised to come when Israel would be in serious "distress", in the "final part of the days". (Gen. 49:1, 10, 24-26; Jer. 30:7-9) They have fallen into spiritual "apostasy". And from the depths of spiritual apostasy, as a "helper", he must gradually "restore" them to a renewed relationship with God, just Jesus did with Israel of the first century. He does this, to "bring back the safeguarded ones of Israel," before Jesus Christ comes with "destruction". (Malachi 4:5, 6; Matthew 19:28; Acts 3:20, 21) Each "safeguarded one" of Israel, everyone of that family is precious to God, to Almighty God. This is true, even though at present, they are spiritually speaking, a pitiable people, lost people due to wicked, bad "shepherds" who have brutalized them, for selfish gain. -- Ezekiel 34th chapter
But who are the real "tribes of Jacob"? The lost tribes of Israel, who are they? Its a mystery, a "sacred secret".
Some years ago, over 12 years ago, MDS recognized who mystery "Israel" in bible prophecy. Since that time, he has made that "disclosure" from God, known to many. He, as time passed, chose his forum. He chose the people that he would "speak" to, to invite them to "repentance" to God. He chose Discussion Boards that are especially frequented by JWs and exJWs and persons who are intimately acquainted with JWs. When all is said and done, MDS said, Mystery "Israel" will prove to be, Jehovah's Witnesses. (Isaiah 49:6)
Zechariah 8:12 [NWT] shows the nation of Israel must become God's "seed of peace" [NWT] so that in a priestly functioning way, they the nation can lead all other nations to "beat their swords" and "spears" into useful instruments, and "learn war no more." (Exodus 19:5,6; Isa. 2:2-4) The "Great War" that is before us, will show the great urgency and wisdom of such a noble goal for mankind. It is God's will that these "nations" learn real "peace" from "Mt Zion", where God's "Law goes forth" into all the earth. But before any of this can happen, Israel itself, must come to be at "peace" with God. They must become a "friend of peace" with God. When Jesus came, they rejected this opportunity. (Luke 10:6; 19:42) Therefore, their earthly nation could not stand before God. God could not and would not "restore the kingdom to Israel", the earthly kingdom they wished to have to that nation, because they rejected the actual terms for "peace" with God. However, that marvelous opportunity will be offered a second time, by God's modern day messiah to "Israel" upon earth. It will be God's answer to the prayer, "let your kingdom, your will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven." (Matthew 6:10) Therefore, after severe discipline has been administered to wayward Israel, a large portion from that number will accept those terms, and become the earthly government they were foretold to become peace for all other nations. -- Daniel 2:34, 35, 44, 45, 47; Acts 1:6
In the post below, MDS states it will take some 14 years for "Israel" and interested parties to come to understand this fact. His unique situation. His claims to be a modern-day "messiah". MDS teaches, approximately 7 of those 14 years have ALREADY passed. 7 years, as of Spring 2003. Which leaves the final 7, running from Spring 2003-2010. (The first 7 years which started with the appearance of "AJWR", Israel's awakening of "sin" in her midst and a special "measuring" period of the "temple", runs from Spring 1996 thru Spring 2003.) That traumatic 7-year period, that particular period is called "Daniel's week" in the Bible, as it represents the final "week" of a 70-week prophecy to pinpoint the coming of the "messiah" of God, based upon Daniel 9:24-27. MDS will provide such details of the future, explaining bible prophecy, as we would logically expect of a "messiah", in whom the Samaritan woman expected to "declares all things openly" so that she could understand. His role, then is to correctly "intrepret" scripture, just as Jesus did. (John 4:25; Luke 24:27) He is God's 'Interpreter" of Scripture. Therefore, by the end of that particular period, by the year of 2010, all will have ample evidence of exactly who God's "messiah" [anointed one] is. That is Spring, of the year 2010. -- Revelation 11:1
It is our future.
----------------------------------------posted-----------------------------
Hi Zep:
MDS, are you involved with 'The Report'?. If so, what happened to the web link i was promised? They said it was going to be up within a week, and that was months ago?
The website is still coming....we will advise when it is finished.
I mean all this stuff is fascinating MDS, just like Frenchy's story was fascinating. But how do you expect us to believe this stuff when you don't offer up any real proof.
Neither (a) the website, nor the (b)book called the "Report," offers any "proof" of this man's claims, the writer's claims, other than the interpretations of scriptures and prophecy themselves, as being backed by God..."god-breathed," God inspired.
Only the interpretations themselves, are offered as "proof."
Let me explain.
When someone "predicts" something...we need time to observe, to look, to meditate, to analyze, to see if such predictions have actually "come true" or not. So, we need time for this...reasonably speaking.
Jehovah God knows this.
So, Mankind will be given much, much time to wait, observe and see if the "predictions," the interpretations of scripture and prophecy will indeed come true or not, just as the writer of the "Report" had said they would.
Also, the people will know, using Deuteronomy 18:18-22, whether the one who speaks of these things, is a "true" or "false," prophet. They will be given much time to analyze and observe the outcome of what has been predicted...over 14 years.
Actually, the real essence of the "Report" itself, is that it makes a number of serious "predictions" about the future of Jehovah's Witnesses and God's dealings with them, in the future, as described in detail within the book. The book speaks of the coming fate of the nation of Jehovah's Witnesses as "modern-day Israel," of Bible prophecy, and how they fare, in the future days ahead...with the "king of the North" bearing down upon them.
The book shows the WTS will make a "serious mistake" in misreading the situation of the upcoming "Great War," as directly leading to "Armageddon," and will unwittingly PROCLAIM SUCH TO THE WORLD, thru its official journal, and signature magazine..."The WatchTower" magazine. This "MISTAKE," this foolish blunder in judgment, will prove to be fatal for them, and will virtually (though not completely) put them "out of business" as the self-proclaimed, "spirit-directed", but yet, non-inspired, "prophet" before God and mankind.
This is because, as said above, the "Great War," WILL NOT lead to "Armageddon," at all, but unexpected "peace," yes, "peace," between nations...peace. And during this unexpected "peace," during a time of proclaimations of "peace and security," yes, during that time of peace, then...
...WORLDWIDE PERSECUTION will come upon Jehovah's Witnesses, as a nation, quickly, "instantly," upon Jehovah's Witnesses, world-wide. At that time, Jehovah's Witnesses are now, earthwide "enemies," with the "king of the North," and his great "war" machine, who now reigns supreme earthwide. The United States of American will suffer a horrible defeat at his hands and will be reduced to a nation only interested in deeds of humanitarianism, at this time in human history.
The "Report's" predictions.
The world's scene will change drastically, after these events take shape. And so, Jehovah's Witnesses as a people, will have to "change," to accommodate the situation...completely change, to appease the "King of the North." Those that choose to "stay with the organization" at this time, will indeed, "receive the mark of the beast" as those in power at the helm of the organization will direct them to do so...during such an unexpected, unforeseen difficult time.
The "Report" speaks of, "predicts," changing political upheavals ahead, changes in policy as to how they (Jehovah's Witnesses, Israel) will be handled and viewed by the world in general, governments of the world, in the upcoming months and years ahead. After the "Great War," spoken of in Daniel 10:1 NIV; Matt. 24:7; Rev. 6:4.
The "Report" also speaks of a major split or major break in the brotherhood of Jehovah's Witnesses, resulting in two factions of JWs, divided off from each other, as spoken of in prophecy. This major split is foretold in the book for the nation of Jehovah's Witnesses, just after the "Great War" has been finished.
The book also, speaks of God revealing His Hand in a powerful way, by adding 200 million followers to the movement, to the smaller faction that breaks off, He adds this number to them...but only after the split has occurred. At a specific time, they are presented to the world, as a united group of worshipers, as Modern-Day "Israel," a completed nation, numbering over 200 million, as Romans 11:25,26 foretold.
Again, the prediction: Some, 200 million individuals will willingly and voluntarily, embrace the Name of God, and will want to be publicly identified by that Name, indicating Jehovah's blessings upon the newly established group, who have the courage to break free from the present-day structure and organization under the direction of the WTS.
This is an indication of God's special blessing upon such a group.
These predictions and more predictions like these, interpretations of prophecy, will be first, written down, dated and documented, for all to see. They are put before the world, as "proof,"... that only God, Jehovah KNOWS THE FUTURE, how things will turn out.
The writing of this literature, The "Report," ... the accuracy of the predictions, then, becomes the "proof" then, of God's Will in the matter. The "proof" that God is backing the writer of this material. Also, that He wants mankind to know, the "way out" of this situation.
Then, people simply wait, they wait and see if the "predictions," and interpretations come true...and then, they can make their decision as to whether they want to accept the "claims" of the personage, making these aforementioned predictions.
This is God's way of settling the matter...of directing His people, in the path to which he wants them to go.
So, if and when these "predictions" come actually true, then, and only then, will the people make up their minds about the "one person," responsible for the writing of these "predictions," and whether this person is who he claims to be. Whether he is from God or not.
Can he now, "guide" the world, "into ALL TRUTH," -- that will be the question before all, at that time. -- John 16:13
Time, much time is needed.
The world of mankind, will have over 14 years, that's OVER 14 years, to observe, think, analyze and make an informed decision about the claims of this individual responsible for all of these "predictions."
They will be given the much needed time to analyze the matter, by Jehovah God. And then, and only then, when they have observed ALL OF THESE PREDICTIONS and interpretations of scripture/prophecy to have come true...only then, are they expected by God, Jehovah, to make a decision on the matter...only then.
So, you see, we have much ahead of us, before we are expected to make our decision on whether this person is who he claims to be...if he really is "from God" or not...God's representative or not.
We don't have to rush...we have plenty of time, to make up our minds...and much "evidence" to consider, before we are expected to make up our minds.
So relax...as they say ... "Rome wasn't built in a day," was it?
Take Care,
MDS
Edited by - MDS on 22 October 2000 4:10:52
-------------end of post-----------
As I mentioned above, from time to time, I will make certain "key" points that are pertinent to the subject matter here and current events of our time as they unfold. In the meantime, we may be certain to look forward to a few surprises for President Bush, Tony Blair, United Nations Security Council and company. "ISLAM" the nations thereof, are going to do a serious "dance" upon the faces of "Christendom", with particular damage being done to the GREAT CENTERPIECE of all Christian faiths worldwide, the (Holy) land of the Israelis! Natural Israel and their borders. The removal of that particular "centerpiece" of token christian doctrine, will reveal how God feels about false teachings, and those who wickedly promulgate them to the unlearned in their midst. We can rightfully expect, within the next 6-7 months, OSAMA [USAMA] BIN LADEN, with much "intrigue" (Dan. 8:23 NIV) will come into power in the most surprising way. Daniel 8:23 speaks of his advent upon the world. The introduction to him. Bible prophecy shows OBL, will prove to be the great spiritual leader of this over powering "beast" with "10 horns". Organized Military nations of the people of ISLAM, who are finally united, against the perceived "imperialism" of the United States/Israel alliance. Those people who when collected together, fighting together, will prove to be an "extraordinarily fearsome beast", as a people. All 1.2 Billion of them!
Even now, they collectively think together in secret. They already exist as the "Islamic Conference Nations", in whom Palestinian leader Arafat consults with secretly. Collectively to date, they are 56 nations. In the past, we know the nations of Islam were not united. They fought among themselves. They were divided. However, this situation will not continue. If forced to act, these people will clearly show the world, the true meaning of their religious word: "JIHAD"! To be sure, these people collectively, are more dangerous and brutal in inflicting pain, death and suffering, than any other people ever gathered together upon the face of this earth. During such a turbulent time, many will hate the "king of the South" [United States./Great Britain]. Yes, even the very ones "eating his delicacies will bring his breakdown". He will be double-crossed by those he thought he could trust. But he, the "King of the South", cannot buy his "friends". They are not his "friends", but only hate him. (Daniel 11:14; 11:26) The people of "Islam", militarily-guided by OBL -- a formidable foe. OBL, the "small horn" of bible prophecy. OBL (Osama bin Laden) in whom God says, is a one who is noted to "understand ambiguous sayings", his forte. The one who will provide spiritual leadership among the foretold militarily armed "10 horns" or "10 kings" of Daniel's prophecy. He will become their spiritual leader. Islam's rallying point. The "small horn", that has "eyes" and a "mouth" that speaks "grandious things." (Daniel 7:7, 8, 19, 20, 23-25; 8:23-25; 11:21-26)
As President Bush works fervishly to start his "war", to get his United Nations Security Council support to disarm IRAQ, this is our future.
bjc
Edited by - bjc2012 on 29 October 2002 9:54:22
Edited by - bjc2012 on 29 October 2002 9:58:58
Edited by - bjc2012 on 29 October 2002 11:54:24
181
Bill Bowen's Comments on Ray Franz
by silentlambs in
1. jw
2. friends
i wish them peace.

at the end of the conversation i did not feel we were in agreement.

for similar reasons i believe ray has not supported the issue of child abuse being a problem in the organization to media and by personal comments to persons who ask him privately about this.
bjc2012

Hi Bill:
Excellent, informative post!
bjc
113
Bill Bowen's attack on Ray Franz
by COJ in
1. watchtower
2. child-abuse
bill bowens attack on ray franz: .

i very seldom find time for checking the discussions going on at various debate sites, and wasnt aware of bill bowens statements about ray franz in his original post of oct. 9, 2002 at 7:26 (now evidently altered), until a friend quite recently sent my a copy of it.

i was not only surprised but was shocked at his statements.
bjc2012

To: COJ
I do not know why you are trying to throw suspicion on Ray Franz, his motives and actions..
I'd say you are doing the same thing, not to me, but to Bill Bowens and the Silentlambs movement. But that's just my opinion though.
However since you mentioned "motives". First of all, let me remind you that "motives" of people, are ONLY fully understood by God Almighty. Therefore, I would caution you to remember that fact, when referring to myself or any one else you have chosen to personally attack. This thread's TITLE that YOU, Carl O. Jonsson started condemns you of what you say I have done.
No, I need not look any farther, Brother Jonsson. Yes, the title of your thread is convenient enough, "Bill Bowen's attack on Ray Franz".
How dare you, say such a thing?
Now, I must ask you, WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING BILL BOWENS?
Now, I see that this is also a "fact" to be reckoned with.
It is you, brother Jonsson, that have launced this attack, is that not so?
If Bill Bowens asked for your help and assistance, if he asked RV Franz for his assistance, what is the problem?
"Can't we just all get along?", as Rodney King said.
Listen, why not show a little SOLIDARITY here my brother. Solaridarity with Bill Bowens, Brother Jonsson?
Solidarity with Bill Bowens and the Silentlambs movement.
But you and RV Franz have an "agenda" I see. And I hope Bill Bowens really reads this because here is the punch line:
You people teach, Jehovah's Witnesses are just another religion. And that means, the presumed "Child Molestation" Problem is exactly the same, as in all other religions.
That's what you and RV Franz teach.
You say JWs are just like any other religions, right?
Well, Bill Bowens gave ten (10) good reasons to show Jehovah's Witnesses ARE NOT like any other religion that has the problem of Child Molestation. Can you please for the sake of this Discussion board and of course for Bill Bowens edification, address these 10 questions please? I will quote them below:
1. Do other church members have the shepherd dominated mentality JWs have?
2. Do other churches allow sex offenders complete anonymity within the church when it is discovered?
3. Do other churches advise that the minister has the last word when molestation issues arise?
4. Do other churches lead members to believe their investigatorial measures are the best way to determine if a person has committed a crime?
5. Do other churches advise the best way to help a troubled person is to tell them to endure and wait for Gods Kingdom to solve their problems?
6. Do other churches take a person who is troubled because of molestation, who has begun self-destructive behaviors and disfellowship them, ostracizing them from the people who would be in the best position to help them?
7. Do other churches require two witnesses to the actual event of molestation before taking any disciplinary measures?
8. Do other churches threaten parents of molested children with disfellowshipment if they try to warn other members whose children may be in danger?
9. Do other churches remove ministers who warn parents of the danger of a certain pedophile molesting their children?
10. Do other churches provide zero training when it comes to how to direct a molested child to get the help they need?
Now, Brother Jonsson, if the answer above is "No", for any of these questions, that's any of them -- then you and RV Franz are wrong!
Did you get that, Brother Jonsson?
I said, you and RV Franz ARE WRONG!!!
And you are MISLEADING the people who listen to you. You are misleading any JWs or ex-JWs that considers you both as wise sages of our time too, and starts to ADOPT your viewpoints as you have so eloquently expressed above..
So Brother, you are wrong, pure and simple.
And this thread that you have started is also wrong too!
Why can't you acknowledge the great work that Silentlambs has accomplished? Why? Did Bill Bowens, all of a sudden, "steal your thunder" from you and RV Franz?
Listen, Bill Bowens has proven to you, the WTS and anybody else who challenges him, that the Child Molestation problem among JWs is collosal, monumental and completely unique. Those ten (10) questions shown above, that evidently you can't answer are the proof!
Perhaps, that is why you are so hotly bothered by the Silentlambs movement. What's the matter, did Bill Bowens "steal your thunder"? You guys got all of the "press" before Bill, right? So now we have a "new dog" in town now, huh? Bill Bowens is the "man" now, and the two of you, you and Ray just can't stand it, is that so?
As he realized that my conclusions were correct, how can you claim that he encouraged or participated in the widespread defamation of my name and character as a result of my research?
Where is that statement in what I wrote, Brother Jonsson? Please point it out to me. You see, now you are embellishing, aren't you?
Listen my friend, I have no "beef" with you, personally. You live in Sweden. I live in America. So, you have no idea of the power and influence of RV Franz as a member of the Governing Body during those eventful years of 1971-80. You say, "Yeah, Ray told me and Ray told me that, and he said this to the Governing Body, and said that, and he did this or that". And Ray went to the G.B. and fought for me", and so on and on. Pleeeeeeeease, give me a break!
Ask yourself, when E. Dunlap was being disfellowshiped, RV Franz was no where to be found, was he? That ought to tell you something.
But hey I know you and he have a good thing going, distributing your "message", and all these days. So, I know, know you and RV Franz are really, busy "these days". I can understand your "business" partnership too. And now I'm beginning to understand why Bill Bowens and the pressing, pertainent issues he raises are not quite so conducive your "ministry" and RV Franz's, these days. I understand why Bill Bowens, is not quite, your "cup of tea". I understand. (Bill, I hope you are reading this.)
I can understand, the whys of it all, and why really giving true support and showing solidarity with Bill Bowens in Silentlambs movement would not be the "right" thing to do, these days. We can see it. The real support just isn't there, based upon your post above. Even though Bill has said over and over, he wants "peace" you brothers. And he wants all current active JWs along with exJW "brothers" to work together, to accomplish something, you guys just "turn your heads" and busy yourself "doing your thing".
I can see you and Ray are not behind him 100 percent. But, before you posted, I wondered, why?
As I ask you now, why are you attacking Bill Bowens? That is my question to you. If you have to answer "No" to those questions he poses above, then Bill Bowens has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, Jehovah's Witnesses as a organization, ARE DIFFERENT from all other religions, that have this problem. They are completely different. They are a "Pedophile Paradise", just as Bill says. But of course, if that were true, that would mean that again, perhaps you and RV Franz were wrong in your "theory" that JWs are just another religion, wouldn't it? And that's what you two have been teaching, isn't it?
I say to you, instead of attacking Bill Bowens, as you have with the creation of this thread, brother Jonsson, you should be conciliatory and try to bring all current JWs and ex-JWs TOGETHER, instead of posting what you have above against Bill Bowens and the Silentlambs movement. You, Carl O. Jonsson should have deep RESPECT for what Bill Bowens, Barbara Anderson and the Silentlambs Movement is all about!
I say Brother Jonsson, it would be nice if we could "STAND TOGETHER" for once, as a united people, and see "eye-into-eye" for once as exJWs and active JWs. If we could see what Bill Bowens was saying, over there in Kentucky. And work together as a team, rather "fight" between us, as I see you are clearly doing, so busy trying to protect Ray's reputation and all, so you can distribute MORE BOOKS, then, maybe we just might get somewhere, for a change. I believe that is what Jehovah really, really wants, don't you? -- See Isa. 52:8.
Why can't we just become "friends of peace", like Jesus said? -- Luke 10:6
But unfortunately as far as RV Franz goes, you will never ever convince me that RV Franz is anything, more than an "escape artist", since I know way too much about him and his unique "ministry", while ON the Governing Body, and after leaving the JW Organization. But you are in Sweden, and were not there in 1971-1980. I understand that.
So, I say believe what you want about what transpired during those years at Bethel, all the while they were "barbequing" you. Thats your business, so means nothing to me.
But, I tell you this, people that are more "in the know" about this situation, know just how powerful RV Franz was back in those years. And how he certainly got a "a ringside seat" when the Governing Body and Associates were BARBEQUING YOU in 1978. I suggest you should read my thread on "RV Franz revealed" my friend. Its on the Main Board called "Friends", because in my opinion, I'm afraid you have been seriously "hoodwicked" by one of the best.
Peace,
bjc
108
The Real Truth About Raymond V. Franz Revealed!
by bjc2012 in
1. jw
2. friends
and for those reasons, coj wanted in the beginning, to stay with the organization, just like bill bowens.

that is all carl wanted.

yes, as members of the governing body, they knew full well, exactly what carl's writings meant.
bjc2012

To all:
I appreciate your candor.
But its time for a reality check.
Some have commented in this thread to the effect,
"don't you know about the 2/3 rule on the Governing Body", and "that's how things are done by them", and so on.
Well, with respect to the 1978 barbequing, and subsequent crucifying of COJ, RV Franz was a very powerful figure at Bethel, during those years. A very, very powerful figure on the G.B. Let me give some of you, especially those who are "new" in the truth, loosely speaking, some background information to go on.
But I do acknowledge, true in more recent years, the Governing Body has employed this "2/3 rule" to establish "present truth", as they call it. But those who know the "inner-workings" of the G.B. know there is much more to the story.
When we go back in time and go back to the actual conception of the "Aid book", the beginning of this false chronology "problem" situation, we don't have such a circumstance existing as many are describing. Let's explore that a bit.
The following information is taken from:
"Crisis of Conscience" pages 21, 22 under chapter "Credentials and Cause" (1983 edition).
Actually when President N. Knorr appointed RV Franz to head up the team to put the "Aid book" together, the only "2/3 rule" in effect at that time, was Knorr himself. Knorr was the "rule" in place. And what he said, his word, was the final word too.
Now back then, he gave RV Franz specific instructions on how he wanted the "Aid book" handled. RV Franz wrote the following on the situation he faced before being a member of the Governing Body,
"Near the start, President Knorr made a statement that proved a key factor in our approach to the project. It was not intended the way we understood it but that undoubtedly was fortuitous. Talking to those of us then assigned, he said, "We just want to present what the Bible says; there is no need to look up everything in the Society's publications."
"His intent in saying this, as we realized later, was so that the project could get done quickly and so it would produce something relatively small, a "handbook" as he later expressed it. By just restating what in the particular Bible verses relating to a subject, with very little additional clarification, there would be only a minimal amount of time needed for research. We misunderstood him to mean that we should strive always to present what the Bible actually said rather than feel obliged to present things the way the Watchtower publications presented them. A considerably different kind of publication resulted than would otherwise have been the case. The material sent in by the 250 men almost without exception presented information according to the "accepted viewpoint" of the Society's publications. Our research often revealed differences."
Therefore, since Nathan Knorr was the "boss", totally in charge, and it was "his instructions" to make the "Aid book" show only "what the Bible actually says", why not approach him with your disturbing "findings" on 607 chronology? Let Knorr make the decision? But RV Franz didn't do this. Why?
The revelation of such a "find" could have jeapodized his future "promotions" for himself. You see, after he finished the "Aid Book", RV Franz was appointed to be a member of the Governing Body. In 1971.
But there is more.
A direct comment from Fred Franz (Vice Pres. and second in command behind Pres. Knorr) back during those years when the "Aid Book" was being put together, in the beginning. Remember, Fred Franz at that time was the "mainstay" of the Writing Dept. at that time, and had been so for many years. He specifically said to RV Franz while compiling the "Aid book",
"Don't try to understand the Scriptures on the basis of what you see today in the organization," he said, and added, "KEEP THE AID BOOK PURE." -- See "Crisis of Conscience" pages 21, 22 under chapter "Credentials and Cause" (1983 edition).
What?
Fred Franz said to Raymond Franz, "Don't try to understand the Scriptures on the basis of what you see today in the organization...just keep the "Aid book" PURE?
So why did not RV Franz just do that?
He had received "instructions" from the President and the Vice President to "keep the Aid book pure," had he not? Knorr told him not to "try to understand the Scriptures on the basis on what you today in the organization", did he not?
So if the President and Vice President told you to the above, you mean you are going to write some PHONE CHRONOLOGY in the "Aid Book" anyway? And do that without any DIALOGUE with them on your unique "findings".
But, that's what RV Franz did, my dear friends.
So we are left to conclude that RV Franz is shy, non vocal brother, a humble brother that just "knows his place", right?
Wrong!
After getting on the Governing Body in 1971, RV Franz's powerful presence was deeply felt. In fact, RV Franz was so powerful, this very possibly could have been the thing that caused his fall from grace, and became his "undoing".
RV Franz was so vociferous, so out spoken that "crammed down the throats" the elder arrangement, and its resulting effects upon the power structure of Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz, the most powerful duo of men in WTS history! During those years, those two men were quite powerful, quite powerful. They WERE the JW Organization, and they always STOOD TOGETHER.
But what discredited them, was their PUSHING of 1975. And RV Franz used this to their particular "undoing", in the end. Don't believe, I say, read the book.
Listen, its obvious to me, you people don't even know the extent of effort RV Franz put in toppling the "ELDER HIERARCHARY" of the Presidency and Vice Presidency, as well as in each and every congregation of JWs worldwide, since the years of 1971-1975, do you? For your information, it was RV Franz and his powerful research derived from the "Aid book" that gave the "elder arrangement" of 1971 its birth, its power -- in all congregations of JWs! Also, 4 years later, it was the "research" from the "Aid book", that actually REMOVED Brother Knorr and Brother Fred Franz FROM POWER, ALTOGETHER -- in December 1975!
RV Franz did this! And nobody else on the Governing Body did this. The "elder arrangement" was Ray's "baby", people. I think some of ya'll need to "tighten up", really.
RV Franz did this! It was his newly installed, potent "presence" on the Governing Body that swayed everybody eventually, except Knorr and Franz to do as Sec/Tres. Grant Suiter said in one morning's meeting:
"...well if we are the "governing body", then let's start Governing!"
My friends, RV Franz's research is what gave conception, and totally EMPOWERED the Governing Body arrangement, don't you remember?
His "findings", his "research" since the early years while they worked on the "Aid Book" did all of this. RV Franz, utilizing there "errors" on 1975, actually put Pres. Knorr and V. Pres. Franz "OUT OF BUSINESS", completely and totally.
By his research on "elders/overseers", RV Franz totally alienated his uncle from him because Ray had for all practical purposes, STRIPPED him of his lofty "power" as Vice President of the WTS. For a while, some 4 years, Knorr and Franz fought bitter RV Franz on his disturbing "findings" of the "Aid book" on the power of the Presidency and Vice Presidency. The true scripturalness of the "Governing Body" and why that particular "body of men" should be empowered, as opposed to following the likes of Knorr and Franz.
RV Franz showed they scripturally didn't have to follow those men anymore! RV Franz stood up for what he called "principle" during those and days and toppled the President and Vice President, and effectively reduced their "influence" on that Central Body of Elders that was to mimic the first century apostle's set up, of a first century Governing Body. Fred Franz desperately tried to counter RV Franz's findings in a Gilead speech actually contradicting RV Franz and the "Aid Book" by while addressing the 59th Gilead Graduation class. Fred Franz in desperation attacked RV Franz.
It was in 1975, in a talk given to the 1975 Gilead Graduation Class, where the Vice President of the WTS, using Acts 15th chapter showed there was no such "ecclesiatical body" nor any "apostolic body at Jerusalem" that first century "evangelizers" like Paul or Phillip received "assignments from". He said, they "did their work" exclusively under the direction of Jesus Christ, and him only. So, these "missionaries" that he was speaking to then, mustn't think they are getting their "assignments" any such group on earth today. -- See Watchtower 1975 page 672.
RV Franz mentions this incident in his first book. And in his book, he shows this was greatly disturbing to himself and those who knew what Fred was doing. According to RV Franz, Fred Franz was openly CONTRADICTING the "Aid book", as well a powerful article written in the December 15, 1971 WT magazine article entitled "A Governing Body as Different From a Legal Corporation". Let's remember, at that time President Knorr and Vice President Fred Franz represented the "Legal Corporation", respectively as its leading and most powerful officers. As President and Vice President, respectively. And in this particular article, it specifically speaks of a "Central Body of Elders" that gave directions to the preaching work in the first century, and that Paul and other preachers of the word, definitely, without question, got their instructions from that "Central Body of Elders" at Jerusalem.
I wonder, how many of you remember that article? How many of you who are complaining against this "little old lady's" comments, were JWs back in December 1971 -- 32 years ago?
How many of you were back there to feel, the tremendous IMPACT of such a doctrinal change, that RV Franz pioneered, by his work on the "Aid book". I'm here to tell you, that "teaching" shook up the entire JW Organization! The "elder arrangement" was talked about for years, as one of the greatest "finds" of our visible organization in recent years.
But this "elder arrangement" was not easy to implement, especially since from its conception, it attacked the power base of the WTS organization. The RV Franz "teaching" tested the strength of the duo of Knorr/Franz and powerful hold on the organization, put to that point. These two men who had been in power since 1942 and 1945 respectively. The two who "ran" this organization.
I'm here to tell you, RV Franz stood up to them. Why? To empower the "Governing body", of which he was a large, vislble part.
Remember, it was RV Franz's Aid Book "research", combined with the debacle of 1975, that successfully topped the "Dynamic Duo" of Knorr and Franz. But it was a tremendous 4 year struggle, from 1971-1975.
And after that tremendous "change over" of power, largely due to RV Franz' efforts, RV Franz entered his "heyday", people. And, it was during this time, that he started to develop problems. He notes, he faced "jealous" and envy from his "peers" on the newly empowered Governing Body. So much so, that he began to "hold his tongue" in G.B. meetings. He stopped speaking his opinion, during those difficult years for him.
Old timers, do you remember, when we used to say,
"washing our cars was SACRED SERVICE TO GOD", remember that?
It was 1976-77. I remember it so well.
Well, where do you think that idea came from? I'll give you one guess. RV Franz of the G.B.
How about this one:
"you can REPROVE YOURSELF" "Don't tell the elders when you fornicate, just reprove yourself".
Remember that?
1976 teaching, from guess who? RV Franz.
How about this one,
"Don't forget to SPEAK to Disfellowshiped people?
1974. RV Franz people.
Ya'll need to remember. I was there.
Most of this information I quoted above is vividly shown in RV Franz's first book.
RV Franz, by his "research" created a "rift" like one never seen before, in the Governing Body of JWs. He "introduced" CONTROVERSIAL information that totally humiliated and alienated Nathan Homer Knorr from himself. Did the same to his uncle, Fred Franz and "cut them down to size", by his "research". Then too, RV Franz further humiliated both men, over the "boo-boo" of their unique making of the 1975 doctrine! All of this discredited these two men. And RV Franz was right there, politely "trampling them in the dirt". RV Franz, as they say, "took care of business" or "TCB" people.
I remember so vividly, a talk R V Franz gave on "The Date of 1975", in the fall of of that year, showing no one in his right mind would believe "Adam named all the animals in quick succession...like God having all the animals run past Adam and Adam just says, "Cow, Bear, Wolf..." RV Franz pointed out then, that Adam needed much more time to study the animals, and find appropriate "names" for each of them. And that would take "much time", he said. I was there, and I heard the talk. But those at Bethel, those in the know, realized the serious implications. His was chiding the brothers MOST responsible for this "teaching". He was chiding Brother Knorr and F. Franz, in whom he PUBLICLY made to look like "jerks". RV Franz did this. RV Franz had "come into power", my friends. By late 1975.
So you people who criticize me, really don't have the facts. I was back there. I lived the "era". (No, I never was a Bethel family member.) I'm only a 50-year baptized veteran of the WTS. And was in the JW organization, before that too, as a child. I attended the 1958 International Assembly in NY, a historic meeting where a quarter of a million were assembled in Yankee Stadium and the Polo grounds. I lived and experienced the effects of the "era" of RV Franz, and before him during Knorr/F. Franz, so I know the difference and the effects of both "administrations" upon JWs.
Remember, RV Franz was a very powerful man, even at his start in 1971. So, he was no one to "push around" at Bethel. He held his own against the strongest of them all, while on that body we call the G.B. His "research" in the end, effectively topped the 2 most powerful men in recent years at Bethel, Nathan Knorr & Fred Franz. The true "policy-makers" of their time for the JW Organization.
Now, I ask, if RV Franz could do all of this described above, what those comments about "keeping the Aid Book...PURE", that his uncle specifically told to do? And about what President Knorr told him to do when he wrote the "chronology" part in the "Aid Book" namely, "...just present what the Bible says," and that all.
So, why didn't RV Franz do as he was SPECIFICALLY TOLD, I ask you?
So people, do your homework, please.
bjc
Edited by - bjc2012 on 27 October 2002 19:10:3
108
The Real Truth About Raymond V. Franz Revealed!
by bjc2012 in
1. jw
2. friends
and for those reasons, coj wanted in the beginning, to stay with the organization, just like bill bowens.

that is all carl wanted.

yes, as members of the governing body, they knew full well, exactly what carl's writings meant.
bjc2012

Dear Friends,
What I'm about to speak will not be popular among ex-JWs, even though this is board of "free speech". What I'm about to say, will no doubt be viewed quite irreverently by many here, who I say, have inadvertently created a sacred icon, perhaps, unknowingly. A sacred "icon" of their own making. But all I will speak, all of it, will be truth. Hard "truths" that some of us will not want to face. The stinging words will appear as the unholy desecration of an "symbol" of courage, who in actuality, is not. Some already know this. Others do not. However, the few that do know this, will get the point I am making and will understand what I'm trying to say, on this most Excellent Discussion Board of Simon's making..
THE RAYMOND V. FRANZ SAGA
Let's go back in the past, and look at the real facts here.
Now, when COJ sent his incredibly well researched, magnificently brilliant manuscripts (in my honest opinion) on August 1977 to Brooklyn Bethel, the powerfully revealing ones that R.V Franz himself said created such a stir among Bethel "Heavies" (Writing & Service Dept.), inadvertently they proved something not fully digested or comprehended up till then. Those "manuscripts" proved that JEHOVAH'S SPIRIT was not with "Bethel", and not with the WTS. But, Carl himself didn't fully realize this at that time. He didn't fully realize, or comprehend the "serious implications" and volatile "truths" borne forth in his "research". COJ was just trying to "effect change" in our viewpoint of what we taught as an organization. And that's it. And for those reasons, COJ wanted in the beginning, to STAY WITH THE ORGANIZATION, just like Bill Bowens. Yes, Bill Bowens has said many times, that after all is said and done, after the WTS corrected their child molestation problems, he simply wanted to stay with the JW Organization. And Carl said the same thing, even after sending the Treatise to Bethel. It was his hope (the same as B.B.) that the "brothers" would see the error of their way and humbly change.That was his sole purpose. That is all Carl wanted. He just wanted to cause REFORM, REFORM, REFORM, Change. The same as Bill Bowens. The same.
But as you recall, after COJ mailed in his Treatise, Albert S., Lyman S. and Dan. S. (the three "S" brothers) for instance knew exactly what his "findings" meant for the JW Organization, and knew exactly where this new information might lead. Yes, as members of the Governing Body, they knew full well, exactly what Carl's writings meant. But still, I don't think COJ himself, knew what the words on the paper, meant. But Bethel did. RV Franz knew what it meant. Especially after having written the "chronology" section in the "Aid Book". Essentially, unknowingly at that time, COJ was actually correcting RV Franz, in actuality. He was also correcting the "Governing Body" of JWs. A complete no-no. Something rarely if ever done by someone without "catching the ship...the disfellowship".
So, in 1977 everybody who was anybody, knew what this meant. RV Franz and the rest of the Governing Body, knew this Treatise, if it had gotten out among the brothers, would prove to be the ultimate "DEATH STROKE" of the JW Organization! The "Death Stroke" Treatise, is what it would have been called, if this "truth" Treatise should get out.
The WTS' "chronology" was wrong, and completely proven so by the lone man, CARL O. JONSSON, from Sweden! And that was a simple fact. Was Jehovah God correcting the entire JW Organization and its Governing Body, by way of this single man, COJ of Sweden? Hmmmmmm. Or, was it just positive proof that God really had nothing to do with JW's Organization, period.
A great dilemma for anyone who was exposed and properly understood what COJ had written.
If this "Treatise" could find its way to the masses, and they could properly comprehend and realize its importance to JW Doctrine, the Governing Body of JWs and all JWs worldwide, would be finished! It would be the end of the JW's organization visible credibility before others. It would also be a certain "death stroke" for any and all, thinking JWs. Then too, it would be a massive "mess" to try to explain any corrections of the 1914 teaching to the world at large, in field service, if the G.B. opted to make necessary changes in their "chronology" printed in their publications. So what should the "Society" do? Humbly change, accept correction? Or attack the messenger, malign his good name and finally murder him, which?
The Governing Body's decision would be, the solution they would predictably choose would be to "get rid" of this lone man, just as they said of Jesus. "Let one man die", for the good of the nation, they presumed. Let's keep the peace among the brotherhood. That would be their reason for doing this terrible thing in Jesus' day. And the same in our day. Let's "kill" COJ!
John 11:50 says,
"...you do not reason out that it is to your benefit for one man to die in behalf of the people and not for the whole nation to be destroyed."
Kill Jesus and save the nation. Doesn't that make sense?
So COJ has to go, but the JW organization will continue. It will continue with all of its lying chronology. But the nation continues.
This is how the Governing Body reasons. The Governing Body and the Sanhedrin of Jesus' day, were and are, the same in this respect. So COJ's influence must be contained. First try to "shut him up", and if that doesn't work, discredit him and finally kill him. ***That was a Governing Body Decision, WHILE RV Franz was on the Governing Body, *** although COJ was not officially disfellowshiped until 1982. Has this fact escaped our notice?
You want proof?
Case in point, this revealing statement from "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" (1986 edition) by Carl O. Jonsson:
"Early in August, 1978, Albert D. Schroeder, a member of the Governing Body, held a meeting in Europe with representatives from European Watchtower branch offices. At that meeting, he told the audience that there was a campaign going on both inside the movement and from outside to have the Society's 607 B.C.E. - 1914 C.E. chronology overthrown. The Society, however, had no intention of abandoning it, he stated."
He said the WTS had no intention of abandoning the "chronology". He spoke what the Governing Body had decided on the matter. He spoke this in 1978, one year after the Treatise of COJ had arrived at Bethel. So they had plenty of time to "study" it.
The publications continues:
"Three weeks later, on September 2, I was summoned to a hearing before two representatives of the Watchtower Society in Sweden. I was told that they had been COMMISSIONED BY THE SOCIETY'S BRANCH OFFICE to hold such a hearing because "the brothers" at the Brooklyn headquarters [where RV FRANZ lived] were deeply concerned about my treatise..."
The Governing Body was "deeply concerned about my treatise". What? The same Governing Body that RV Franz was on? You must be kidding! Now, how could such a statement be made, with the Governing Body NOT discussing the matter, I ask? Actually, everybody who was in the know, was talking about the Treatise through out the hallowed halls of Bethel. This was no secret. And this is a year later too, in 1978, after having plenty of time to "investigate" what the brother from Sweden was saying.
He continues:
"...Partly as a result of this meeting, I resigned from my position as an elder in the local congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, explaining why in a lengthy letter to to my fellow elders. Soon it became widely known among my Witness brothers in different parts of Sweden that I had rejected the chronology of the Society. In the following months I and others who had questioned the Society's chronology began to be condemned privately as well as from the platforms of kingdom halls and at Witness assemblies or conventions. we were publicly defamed and characterized in the most negative terms as "rebellious," "presumptuous," "false prophets," "small prophets who work out their own little chronology," and "heretics." we were called "dangerous elements in the congregations," "evil slaves," "blasphemers," as well as "immoral, lawless ones." Privately, some of our Witness brothers, incuding a number of the Watchtower Society's travelling representatives, also intimated that we were "demon possessed," that we had "drenched the Society with criticism" and that we "should have been disfellowshipped long ago." These are just a few examples of the widespread defamation which has gone on ever since...In a letter to Albert Schroeder, dated December 6, 1978, I described the new turn of events, calling attention to the sad fact that although my treatise had been composed with the greatest thoughtfulness and sent to the Society in all sincerity, I had become the victim of backbiting, villification and character assassination... "-- See The Gentile Times Reconsidered (1986) pages 5, 6
Now, all of this happened in 1978, while RV Franz was a powerful member of the Governing Body. So all the while COJ was being barbequed, crucified by the "WTS", for teaching his wicked "little chronology", and the Governing Body on the rampage against him, where for God's sake was RV Franz, I ask you?
The facts reveal in August 1978, exactly one year after receiving "The Treatise" from COJ, the Governing Body's "official position" toward what Carl wrote, as revealed by Albert S , was what?
Total brutalization! Mindless slander. Smearing his reputation among the brothers. Malicious lying on him. Even though he pleaded, pleaded that what he wrote was in complete "sincerity" to help the JW brothers.
Now how are you going to get RV Franz "OFF THE HOOK", on the basis of that situation?
You can't. He was ON the Governing Body when all of this was going on. And he knew more about the false "chronology" than anyone else on the Governing Body at that time, since he had given the issues EXTENSIVE RESEARCH before hand. Perhaps, even more than the intellectually DISHONEST, incorrigibly dishonest, Fred Franz, his uncle. So he certainly "knew" the subject quite well. (Some say as early as 1969, RV Franz knew the 607 bce teaching was false!)
So, from my perspective, it doesn't matter if COJ "forgave" Raymond Franz or not for what happened in 1978. That's not my business. I'm only concerned with the facts. And the facts reveal RV Franz, as a member of the Governing Body of JWs, was a part of this "devastating situation" that permanently branded COJ of being an "apostate" against the Governing Body, and against ALL JWs worldwide. God is the witness, and that history of events cannot be erased by man, or the uninformed, misdirection of those who wish to glorify the ignominy of heartless men. I don't care how much you people (and COJ included) "like" RV Franz, since its not material nor relevant to God and Jesus Christ, from my perspective. Facts say RV Franz was a part of the persecution of COJ, period. And Ray will have to "live with the consequences" of his actions. Perhaps, his writing the 2 books was "his" way of clearing the slate. I don't know. If so, then fine. God is his final judge, not me and certainly not any on this discussion board.
But a fact is still a fact. We must not embellish our own unique "history" of events about the "glories of RV Franz", to make our point. We must just "call a spade a spade" and realistically face the facts as they have transpired in the past.
Fact: COJ's efforts, and NOT RV Franz's, proved something. COJ, the person, PROVED by his discoveries in his "Treatise" the truth that the Governing Body, and this worldwide organization, was truly not "spirit-motivated", "spirit-directed" at all. His "Treatise" proved the WTS was NOT the F&DS class and that there were no ANOINTED to be found among Jehovah's Witnesses, period. He proved that to me. And he proved it to countless other thinking individuals in numerous congregations of JWs worldwide.
COJ's writings PROVED that the Governing Body and 6 million JWs worldwide ARE NOT "spirit-motivated" and they are NOT a "spirit-directed" organization. That's a fact.
RV Franz must only admit in his 2 books, that if anything, for those 9 years he was a member of the Governing Body, the only thing he had accomplished ostensibly was to show for the most part, he was a PART of the "problem" in misleading people. He was a part of the problem, and NOT a part of the "solution". He was NOT a part of the "remedy" to correct the problem. His 2 books mainly show all of the "dirt" of the G.B. in running the organization. The pettiness of G.B. members and so on. And even that was "toned down" considerably in both of RV Franz's books. And I think for his sakes, thus understandably so.
Whereas, when we look back in the past, we must admit, COJ and Bill Bowens were a part of the "solution" to the problem. Even if JWs are not from God (and I still believe they are for "other" reasons), still these men accomplished much that they can be proud of before God and man. Yes, they helped me and countless others see the JW Organization, at this point and up to this point, is NOT "Spirit-Directed". And I and many others, needed to know this. And with that "knowledge," now, I need to find out why, these people are NOT "spirit-directed". They are either God abandoned, or He never was there in the first place. Either way, I need to know which is the correct answer. But at least I know the "real deal", because of Bill Bowen's work, his bravery, and his courage -- and Carl Jonnson's work, his bravery and courage. I know because of them, I say. Praise Jah for these brothers!
These "Jesus-like" men, wanted change, reform. They advocated "adjustment" and were unjustly VILLIFIED FOR IT. But, they stood their ground, against all odds, stood by themselves, and was "murdered", their reputation, their good name taken away, they were martyred like Jesus, for their stance.
You can never prove this to be true of the course RV Franz took, as revealed in his 2 books. Ray was an "escape" artist, trying his best to get the heck out of "Dodge City" before the real gun fight began. He was one who had the "knowledge" but did nothing with it.
So, in my mind when you say the name Raymond V. Franz even with all of his notoriety, you are saying one thing. But when you say COJ and BB, you are saying quite another, from a shall we say, "christian" point of view. From a Godly point of view.
Honestly, we have to admit when we look at the facts, there is no difference between the actual "works" of COJ and Bill Bowens. They both discovered flaw in JW organization policy and practice, doctrine. They were both brave men. Loyal to "truth" and "righteousness". And Jesus said we need to "seek first" both of those things. (Matt. 6:33)
History reveals Raymond V. Franz discovered serious flaws in the teaching of 1914 too. He discovered there was no historical support at all for the chronology teaching of 607. Still Ray went ahead and violated his conscience (thus the phrase "Crisis of Conscience, the title of his first book), and supercilliously wrote the "chronology" section in the "Aid Book", which mislead countless MILLIONS of JWs. That's the part he played in our spiritual growth. He, inadvertently crippled us. In 1971 when he and Reinhart L. and Edward D. finished the "Aid Book", Ray knew the brothers was wrong on their 1914 chronology, maybe as early as 1969. He had the facts then. But that's as far as it went. R.V. Franz heartlessly opted to do as sooooooooooo many JWs do when they see something wrong in the "organization" THAT THEY CAN'T EXPLAIN AWAY for some reason, they just "go along to get along". And thats what RV Franz did, back between the critical years of 1969-1971 when he finally completed his writing and findings of the "chronology" section of the "Aid Book" which misled many millions of innocent people who deserved better. Which meant, anyone from that time forward who opposed this faulty "chronology" would be summarily be invited to "catch the ship...the disfellowship".
But there is more for RV Franz. Back in August of 1977, six years after the "Aid book" was finished, back when COJ submitted his more extensive, clarifying information, Ray DEFINITELY knew the "chronology" section of the "Aid Book" was wrong by then. Now, all of sudden, RV Franz now has even more evidence, he has now the profound corroborating "evidence" COJ, in written form. And not only that, but RV Franz, by that time, a most prolific writer and outstanding member on the member of the Governing Body, now has the surprising support of both the entire Writing and Service Dept, all who read the "bombshell" treatise of Aug. 1977. The "bombshell", written by COJ, that Ray himself said, "created such a stir" within the hallowed walls of Bethel. Ray had that too to help him make a stand before the Governing Body, back in 1977. Did he do this?
No.
So then, we must ask: where was RV FRANZ when Albert S. spoke his famous words in 1978 AGAINST COJ? Where was RV FRANZ then?
I don't doubt, these events and many others eventually led RV Franz to make his "decision" to leave the G.B. in March of 1980. I realize that. But, it would be close to another 3 years before any "action" on Ray's part. And his unique "solution" to the problem would simply be to quietly, leave Bethel, and quietly, find himself some "employment" where he could take care of HIMSELF and family, and that's it. No step, even at this time, to help the brothers, who are "left in the valley of danger" because of the treachery of the WTS. Yes, RV Franz had NO INTENTION, and that's no intention, to WRITE NO WONDERFUL BOOKS on the corruption of the G.B. at that time. And He admitted that himself. RV Franz wasn't thinking about helping nobody, while first in Gadsden, Ala. No, and even after that, as he stated in his books, he had NO such intentions at all of revealing the WTS corruption. If the G.B. would have left him alone, that would have been the end of it, and many of us, as the hapless "uninformed" would still be in the JW Organization, CALLING COJ an apostate!
So, unforeseen circumstances FORCED RV Franz to write his 2 wonderful books, and thus creating "Commentary Press", the publishing arm of many of the ex-JW books we now read today.
Because so far as RV Franz was concerned in 1980, if the WTS and G.B. would have left him alone, if he would have kept things quiet and on the "down low". No problem there.
Why? Because was still a baptized brother, still well-received and accepted as a "brother in good standing" who could have pioneered if he had wanted to, back in 1980. Remember, the G.B. offered him a "Special Pioneer" position (and his wife, complete with a little "check" you know) while he was among the brotherhood in Alabama. So then, everything that happened to Ray, was forced upon him too. When his "trouble" started came from things that he slipped and said while at Bethel. Also more trouble from eating a meal, with his disassociated "employer", the one who gives Ray money for work. They one who provided Ray with a "trailer" to live in. The one RV Franz was definitely LOYAL to P. Gregerson, in Gadsden, Ala. that's all I see in this man.
When we look at the facts, without all of this mythical embellishment of RV Franz's historic, triumphant leadership on the Governing Body between the years of 1971-1980, we do not see a "martyr", like BB or COJ, do we? Remember, if Raymond Franz had been as forthright and straightforward as E. Dunlap when confronted with their "transgressions" against the WTS, then, guess what -- Raymond V. Franz would have been DISFELLOWSHIPED WITH EDWARD DUNLAP! They would have "caught that ship" together. They would have went down together! Why didn't he stand with his faithful brother (E. Dunlap) and face the "consequences of hisr actions" and have their dual "executions" together. But the facts reveal he did no such thing, did he? Read his books and see. So, RV Franz, so UNLIKE brave, staunch E. Dunlap, Carl J., Bill B., simply valued staying in the organization of a more greater worth, and HYPOCRITICALLY keeping his "private beliefs" to himself (as many of you do on this discussion board) to be of greater importance, than in true Jesus-like-fashion standing for "principle", standing for "truth" and "righteousness" even if it means EXECUTION. Now many might not like that statement, but it is truth. And I say, all "evidence" found in RV Franz' own testimony of how the events transpired in 1980 at Brooklyn Bethel, all found in his books which eloquently tell the story. Case closed.
However, a much different story must be told, when history speaks about Bill Bowens, Edward Dunlap, Barbara Anderson, and Carl Olof Jonsson.
They all wanted change. They all invited the Governing Body to "review" their erroneous position and "do good" to their brothers in the faith, did they not? And they all fearlessly stood BEFORE the Governing Body, and advocated change. For that, all four (4) were all disfellowshiped, reputation maligned, and martyred for trying to HELP THE BROTHERS. They were "killed" for the cause of righteousness. Therefore, they were very "Jesus-like" in that they were both willing "martyrs" for the cause of right, in God's eyes. They gave the "fine public declaration" before Jesus and God Almighty. They were WICKEDLY sacrificed for the good of the "nation" as John 11:50 says. -- See also 1 Timothy 6:13.
As for RV Franz, at 80 years old, as he reflects upon his "legacy", he must remember, we all make our beds and have to lie in it one day. Inescapably, his "day" has come. He must remember, in good conscience when he accepted the RESPONSIBILITY to become a member of the Governing Body, he knew then he had better be prepared to live with the total consequences of his actions forever more. To be sure for any of us, to become a part of a policy-making body for an organization or group of people of more than 6 million, in which the critical decisions we reach could potentially have such devastating, catastrophic results to these same millions of people worldwide, is no small responsibility before God and man, is no small task to accept. Few will ever, have such a responsibility cast upon them. Few will ever has so much ACCCOUNTABILITY before God and man.
I will give RV Franz this, in 1980, perhaps he saw it was really time to "leave" Bethel and the Governing Body. I give Ray that. For that was a "good" decision on his part.
But, I give Bill Bowens, Carl O. Jonsson, Barbara Anderson, and the recently deceased Edward Dunlap, my award for true christian "bravery", down to their last drop of blood.
Amen.
bjc
Edited by - bjc2012 on 25 October 2002 22:38:22