Posts by OneEyedJoe

36

White supremacy is an ideology of peace

by OneEyedJoe in

i'm tired of hearing these constant attacks on white supremacists after the events in charlottesville.

why are moderate white supremacists being lumped in together and sharing the blame for the actions of one reprehensible man that misinterpreted the ideals of white supremacy and became violent?

clearly the motivation of such attacks on white supremacists is nothing other than racism.

OneEyedJoe

Again, not defending white supremacists by any means here (I keep saying this because sometimes it's uncomfortable playing devils advocate...)

Considering the statistics, I am sure there is a higher percentage of White Supremacist that turn to violence compared to Islam

I'm not aware of any such statistics, and I would also argue that moderate white supremacists (i.e. your everyday racist white guy) are far less likely to self-identify compared to muslims.

I would also point out that religion in general is often pretty racist too...Jews in the bible proclaimed that they were a special race, to name one obvious example. Even when the holy books aren't explicitly racist, the doctrines are often so intertwined with racism that it's difficult to separate them, at least historically speaking.

However, we are still a society where such religions are considered the norm.

That's my main point for those that would defend islam regarding it's connection to terrorism. The only thing that separates it from other disgusting ideologies is that it makes supernatural claims and calls itself a religion. It's no more racist to criticize islam than it is to criticize white supremacists. It's just pointing out the obvious.

36

White supremacy is an ideology of peace

by OneEyedJoe in

i'm tired of hearing these constant attacks on white supremacists after the events in charlottesville.

why are moderate white supremacists being lumped in together and sharing the blame for the actions of one reprehensible man that misinterpreted the ideals of white supremacy and became violent?

clearly the motivation of such attacks on white supremacists is nothing other than racism.

OneEyedJoe

I'm tired of hearing these constant attacks on white supremacists after the events in charlottesville. Why are moderate white supremacists being lumped in together and sharing the blame for the actions of one reprehensible man that misinterpreted the ideals of white supremacy and became violent? Clearly the motivation of such attacks on white supremacists is nothing other than racism. And then people go around trying to get moderate white supremacists to condemn the actions of these few fringe groups that they are obviously not affiliated with. Those terrorist groups may have been brought up in the same basic ideology as moderate white supremacists and that may get used as a framework to radicalize them, but white supremacy is surely not to blame.

These events would be more easily explained by looking at socioeconomic factors, not by the base ideology of the attackers. White supremacists have been attacked in the media, living in impoverished sections of the country, and have had their free speech suppressed for so long, it shouldn't be surprising that nefarious people motivated by political and economic goals would capitalize on their oppression and radicalize a few white supremacists into violence. That doesn't tell us anything about your average white supremacist at all! Most white supremacists are peaceful, kind people that just want to live their life and not be discriminated against. You might even be acquainted with a few white supremacists and not even know it! So why is everyone placing the blame where it doesn't belong?

I'm sure there'll be a few that misinterpret this, but here's a hint: it's satire. I agree with nothing I'm writing in favor of white supremacy. I'm honestly interested, though, where the real difference lies between the ideology of white supremacists driving them to violence vs the religion of islam driving them to violence. They're both obviously wrong. They're both rooted in violent histories. They both support killing/cleansing based on arbitrary factors that are largely not in control of the victims.* They can both be reinterpreted at will to suggest that violence is not a core belief (obviously white supremacists want peace! whites are the most peaceful race! etc.) The criticism of both is likely to be considered racist by the supporters. There are large groups of both that are not vocal or actively violent (islam might have a slight upper hand here, but maybe not enough to make a substantive difference to the point I'm making). I haven't been super active in this fight so maybe I'm missing one but I honestly can't think of an argument against blaming islam for terrorism that doesn't also make the case against blaming the ideology of white supremacy for the violence of groups like the KKK and neo-nazis.

*To be fair, islam has a slight upper hand here because you can technically choose to convert, but I suspect that most white supremacists would probably let a black man live if he converted and espoused their ideology too. For most, converting to islam is about as likely as a black man becoming a white supremacist, though so maybe islam isn't too far ahead here.

26

Born Ins, How Did Your Parents Get "The Truth™"?

by pale.emperor in

born ins are in a unique position in that we never knew any other way of life.

no birthdays, christmas and overly superstitious family just seemed normal.

when my parents talked about their pre-jw life it seemed like they were talking about completely different people (actually, that's true, the cult had taken their real selves).. so i'd be interested in hearing how your parents were indoctrinated.. my dad.

OneEyedJoe

My parents both have similar stories. Both had fathers that weren't around too much (my paternal grandfather was a travelling salesman, my maternal grandfather in the military) and mothers that were lonely housewives that were contacted in the run-up to 1975 and indoctrinated, and later dragged my parents into the cult in their late teens. On my mother's side it was compounded by lots of family travel due to the military father, so she was a constant fish out of water and found the instant friendship and community of the cult.

My father was raised in a small town in Texas that had (and still has) absurdly religious demographics. He claimed not to be fond of the hypocrisy and open collections taken in church and that was one of the main reasons he liked the cult. I'm sure my grandmother quitting smoking had an influence too. He's also a very emotional and humble man and I think the way the cult plays on emotion and exploits humility got him. He's a very good public speaker, but refuses to believe that this came from natural talent or decades of frequent practice but instead is explained only by holy spirit.

I've never met my maternal grandfather as he and my grandmother were separated well before my birth. I don't really know the full story, but something tells me that he didn't much enjoy being married to a cultist...at least the timing works out on that. Otherwise it's possible that the marriage was in trouble and that helped push my grandmother and mother into the cult.

My paternal grandfather seemed to regard the cult's doctrine (particularly the pandas and paradise) as ridiculous for most of his life. It wasn't until about 5 years prior to his death that he finally got sucked in - he really liked the man who married his granddaughter (my cousin) and went to his first meeting to see his first public talk. At this point he was an old man with no one in his life but his wife and my cousin and her husband, all three cultists, so all three would leave him frequently. I think he finally succumbed to his loneliness, and possibly the pseudo logic of pascall's wager (which, at his age, is almost reasonable).

So, to sum up, loneliness seems to be a particular theme here, and for my parents and grandmothers the 1975 scare definitely played a role (though they'd dispute that it ever happened if you asked them...).

29

What would happen to a JW who respectfully refused to fill out a no blood DPA?

by Island Man in

i know you'll be involuntarily disassociated if you unrepentantly accepted a blood transfusion; and i know you'll be disfellowshipped for apostasy if you openly disagreed with watchtower teaching.

what if you have done none of the above but simply respectfully refused to fill out the dpa without giving any reason for your refusal - so they can't accuse you of openly disagreeing with the no-blood doctrine and df you for apostasy.

they don't know why you're refusing and you're not giving them the reason - and you're being very respectful.. what can they do?.

OneEyedJoe

It depends on the BOE. Most likely, they would press you on why you're refusing and depending on your answer their actions will vary widely. If you go with "Oh I keep forgetting" long enough they might stop bothering you and nothing will come of it. If you confess any doubts about the moral perfection of refusing life-saving medical treatments, though, they'll likely pursue it (excuse me, they'll seek to strengthen and encourage you) until they can get you to fall into line or admit to apostasy and disfellowshipped. Certainly if you are outspoken about your stance in the slightest with other congregation members they'll find some excuse to silence you, probably starting with marking and working towards disfellowshipping if you don't fall into line.

14

Pale Emperor Seems To Have Developed A Fetish

by pale.emperor in

dont worry, this is safe for work... :).

remember when we were jws and we were told not to "model ourselves after the world"?

meaning no tattoos, no non-approved hairstyles, clothing to be not too tight, not too short etc etc etc?

OneEyedJoe

Has anyone else noticed they're drawn to the exact opposite of JW standards since leaving?

I've always been attracted to women that go against JW standards - educated, ambitious women. But more in line with what you're on about, I've also always been attracted (even as a JW) to girls with hair dyed some bright unnatural color. the piercing thing never interested me but some women can really make tattoos work.

13

Genesis chapter one can make your life meaningful and joyful

by venus in

literal reading of genesis chapter one brings no benefit because you would see god as speaking to fishes and birds (genesis 1:22) which we know is not possible.

however, with “a king’s mind” if one looks for the implied truth behind its literary allusions it may bring immense benefit.

(proverb 25:2) for example:.

OneEyedJoe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Ud7-EkZEI

In case the link doesn't work exactly right, start at ~1:07

20

Who can guess the number closest to memorial partakers ?

by Chook in

my punt 16144 , do you like my last three numbers !.

OneEyedJoe

Wouldn't be surprised if they stop reporting it this year. Especially after another poster here said that at the convention the person giving the closing talk said that the number of partakers didn't matter. They'll probably plant this seed a time or two before quietly removing the stat from the yearbook maybe with a half page explanation.

15

boyfriends jehovah witness mom

by whatisthis12 in

my boyfriend is an ex new jehovah witness and today i got a message from one of his friends asking if i could delete a comment he wrote on one of my pictures because my boyfriends mom is harassing him about it.

he also basically told me that she has people who added me just to view my profile and let her know!!!!

she also sends him messages and pictures from the watchtower.

OneEyedJoe

You really need to talk to your boyfriend and come up with a plan of action. As I and others said in one of your other threads, the first thing to do is to make 100% sure your boyfriend knows its a cult and is never going back and that he's made this decision based on immovable facts. If that's not the case, you need to get him there quickly or walk away. Next up you need to have an open talk about his family. He is or was a JW so he'll know how to expect JWs to behave just like us, but furthermore he knows the people involved personally so he'll probably have greater insight into what to expect than any of us here will. It's a very bad sign that you have to learn about this all from strangers on the internet when the person with whom you ought to have close/open communication knows more about the situation than any of us do. You need to work on your communication or your relationship is going to fail with or without cult drama.

Once you've laid everything out with him then you need to decide what to do. Do you really want to stick around with him and all the cult drama and potentially be dealing with it on some level for the rest of your (or his parent's) life? Don't be afraid to be honest with yourself about what you want out of this. If you really want to stay with him, then that's great, but if you don't then that's fine too and you'll be doing no one any favors if you stick with it when its not really what you want. Again, if he's not completely resolute in his feelings about the cult, you need to include in your decision process the very real risk that he'll go back to it at some point (maybe a year, maybe in 20 years) and completely up-end your life together.

As others have said, this behavior from his mother is very typical of a JW in her situation. In some cases the only way to stop it is to cut off the relationship. Some JWs are able to adhere to strict boundaries if you set them and fight to maintain them. It all depends on their maturity level and objectivity (sometimes a JW will have just enough objectivity to see that their behavior, though motivated by their religious beliefs, is neither rational nor productive). Again, your boyfriend will have a better chance of guessing how this will go.

Good luck to you.

29

What religions/organizations aren't a cult?

by Jules Saturn in

so we've already established that most religions can be classified as high control groups, we can name the wbts, church of scientology, lds, etc.

the list goes on and on.

but are there any religions or organizations that aren't classified as a high control group or aren't as bad as the ones i've just mentioned?

OneEyedJoe

While JWs / WTBTS certainly has many of the hallmarks of a cult , I sometimes think it is better understood in terms of a commercial religious literature publishing and ( with that trade in something of a decline , increasingly nowadays ) real estate trading business that exploits free labour.

You can best understand the business decisions of the WTS by viewing it as a publisher turned real-estate empire, but you can best understand it's control over and negative impact on it's volunteer work force by viewing it as a cult.

29

What religions/organizations aren't a cult?

by Jules Saturn in

so we've already established that most religions can be classified as high control groups, we can name the wbts, church of scientology, lds, etc.

the list goes on and on.

but are there any religions or organizations that aren't classified as a high control group or aren't as bad as the ones i've just mentioned?

OneEyedJoe

So we've already established that most religions can be classified as high control groups

I can't say I agree with your premise.

I think most denominations of christianity probably don't qualify as being a cult in my mind - even though all use some of the same methods of control as cults do. You'd be well served by thinking of cult more as a spectrum - some groups are more or less culty but all are at least a little culty.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any group that doesn't exert some form of control that's similar to methods used by a cult. Because cults use an amplified version of social influence to control people, you'd expect to find diluted versions of those methods in any social interaction. So, yes, literally every religion (and bridge club or book club or workplace or political party) will have some elements of cult influence, but in most cases these do not go to the point of becoming what we would usually identify as a cult because their influence hasn't gotten extreme. Maybe if you leave your book club you won't talk to those people as often, but they won't shun you completely. Maybe members of a political party discourage spending too much time investigating alternative ideologies, but they won't kick you out if you do and come back with new ideas for discussion.

Edit: it might be worth adding that I say this as an atheist: just because all religions are factually wrong, doesn't mean they're a cult.