Why Fundyism is Irrational

by jgnat 87 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • trevor
    trevor

    Shining one
    God does not murder anyone, they live and die according to the predestination of God.

    When the god of the Bible is alleged to have flooded the earth in the days of Noah it was mass genocide. In plain English murder. The same with Sodom and Gomorra. There are many more instances of this small god’s homicidal tendencies including murdering the men, woman and children in Jerusalem. The actual date of this horrendous event is best forgotten.

    You prefer to call these murders the ‘predestination of God.’ In the real world we call it murder.

    How or when they die is irrelevant to a created being in the end because they all have immortal souls.

    According to your Bible we do not have immortal souls. We are told that your god is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. That is not immortality but an existence based on the whims of a psychopath.

    The reason I am suppose to be grateful to him is that he arranged for his own beloved son to be tortured to death on my behalf. (I note that you state it was god himself but I won’t even go there) I don’t wish to be in any way associated with such an evil act. My life is not worth that much.

    That you do not recognize evil, is to do with the fact that your to attempts to please your murdering god and save your own soul, have blinded your mind to the goodness than does exist in many ordinary people. People who have rejected the god the Bible as a fabrication, invented by men.

    I rarely bother reading or responding to you posts because they are so laughably naïve, but your insistence in peddling you twisted beliefs does demand an occasional response. I am not without belief in the source of life but belief in the god of vengeance that you worship, is responsible for the mentality that has lead to so much misery and piety in what could be a beautiful world.

    trevor

  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises
    CYP? I am sorry that you have never completely made your break from the Watchtower

    JGnat,

    Finally someone has put their finger on what my problem is!!! I never considered that this might be my problem. Why are you giving somone with such amazing powers of observation a hard time.

    Actually I am a "Mere Christian". Everything beyond that is secondary details, which can be risky as well. All the dumb ideas that have come from the minds of Christians don't come from the basics, rather from trying to hash out all those secondary details.

    Nevertheless, I am ever seeking and aspiring to be fearless in my search for truth.

    CYP

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Quit whining, Trevor. Accusations and prevarications are your style. I don't need to answer you posts at all because it serves no point.
    The same goes for you, Old Soul. You are so biased toward Jgnat that you wouldn't dare admit she hasn't a leg to stand on. You guys love spineless Christians that give away the argument without a fight. Having a Christian dare to stand up and tell you that your views are ignorant and pathetic is not what you want. I will be 'salt and light', not lukewarm.
    Rex

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    Shining One,

    My faith in regards to my view of this issue is not in any way founded on process charts or jgnat's way of arriving at her conclusions. My faith in regards to my views is based on a simply worded chapter in the Bible.

    1 Corinthians 2

    I agree with Paul. The spiritual man can see both the physical and the spiritual with clarity. But, the spiritual is not made known through the physical. The spiritual is ONLY made known through the Holy Spirit. You cannot teach spiritual things to a physical man because they are foolishness to him.

    Do you agree with Paul? I will leave it to you and your conscience to determine whether you owe me an apology for your maligning comments directed toward me.

    In other words, as has been stated repeatedly to you, the Scientific Method, a process designed to examine ONLY the physical, is not suitable for bolstering, supporting, proving, or otherwise addressing spiritual things. It is self-limiting in ways that prevent its use in examining anything spiritual.

    OldSoul

  • bebu
    bebu

    Rex,

    You are quite new to this board. You are full of busyness, full of zeal, and I would guess you are full of good intentions. But you are not very full of love. Review 1 Cor 13, and you will see why this is a major problem (speaking with the eloquence of angels means nothing if you don't have love, recall).

    Now, I don't mean that love requires being spineless. Love can be tough; there is a time and a place for everything. But we have self-appointed evangelists fly-by over here on JWD frequently. They stand above us--we don't know who they are at all--and just dump on us. They never even ask us who we are--or how we are. Because they are just doing a duty, checking off a task on their list, because they feel that perhaps God will judge them for NOT saying something to everyone. They don't love US, they are just anxious about how God views THEM. This is really sad!! I am a Christian, and I feel this way! (Of course, occasionally one does stop and listen to the complaints we give up, but these are rare.)

    Love requires TIME. Time to establish your identity. Time to establish your genuineness. Jesus started his ministry at 30, not 13 (freshly bar-mitzvah'ed, and considered a man in the synagogue). Think about that... why would Jesus live quietly and allow people to die during that period without preaching to them, if it's true that their hearing the gospel would be the only chance they had? Wasn't that a big, missed opportunity? Wouldn't he be criticized roundly in some circles, for not "making the most of every opportunity"? What is it we understand, then, by Jesus' not starting right away--or even, that Jesus didn't show up directly after Adam and Eve and get things sorted right away? Is God in control at all?

    You are not willing to spend time knowing anyone, in order to be able to be able to love them. You are willing to spend hours typing out things that are so drenched in your pride, that even if truth were in them no one would want to listen to you. You are your own worst enemy, sad to say.

    Jgnat is well-established as a genuine person, interested and willing to think about others' points of views, and has always that Jesus is always relevent to her in her life thru it all. Her faith is alive. She loves people, in spirit and in truth, whereas you only seem to know how to type the word (but I'm not even sure you've typed it yet). This is harsh, but this is my observation. It's too bad you can't have a spirited, good-hearted conversation with jgnat... but I wonder if you are able to have a genuine conversation with anyone...

    Why not follow the Golden Rule of Jesus? Do unto others what you would have them do unto you. You want people to consider your opinions without disdain? Well, then please stop disdaining others' opinions. There will be points you can agree with, even if you can't accept other points or the conclusion.

    Jesus set examples, and he could preach with authority because of who he was. You, on the other hand, have no established authority here, and demonstrate no concern for who we are--not even mere consideration which is common in regular conversation! Set us an example. We'll know you by your fruit, and so far, I am not sure if you are really a Christian yet.

    Start with humility, which is the very hardest thing of all. Otherwise, you are really uncovered as a pharisee.

    bebu

    PS I realize that the charge that I must be humble is going to be leveled; and it's likely valid. I am sincerely not writing this to offend you, Rex, or look like a jgnat yes-man (and not that jgant needs one). I'm trying to tell you something very important. I've worked hard on my own beam-in-the-eye problem (still have to keep it up) so I recognize what this one looks like in others. I know it's important to remove.

    PPS: hehehe, cyp, I am a Mere Christian as well.

  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises

    Bebu,

    That was an absolutely beautiful response.

    I have never thought that telling people they are wrong had any place in my relationship with Christ. I think I need to keep working on that rafter in my own eye before I go working on that speck in someone else's. Of course, boldly speak the gospel to others! But then in that case you aren't the one telling them they are wrong now are you. And why would anyone want to listen to me if I did. Who the hell am I? Just another who has fallen short.

    Humility does not equal weakness.

    Bombast does not equal strong convictions.

    (Glad you caught my reference. One of the most personally influential books I have ever read. Lewis is on the short list of names if my wife and I have another son.)

    CYP

  • trevor
    trevor

    Shining one says:

    Quit whining, Trevor. Accusations and prevarications are your style. I don't need to answer you posts at all because it serves no point.

    I take that as a compliment. Normally you have so much to say but surprisingly, you know when to remain silent.

    What you call accusations are Biblical references to the murderous god that you serve, in you tiny mind.

    Perhaps my posts affect you at a level called truth.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Shining One. Lukewarm you say? I don't think my responses to you have been wishy-washy. I've tried subtelty, no use, you are blind to it. I've tried the two-by-four, no use, you crawl back for more punishment. The one fruit out of this experience is the pleasure in laying out my belief-structure. Some great thinkers have responded and given me much to think about.

    I don't need to answer you posts at all because it serves no point.

    I can only hope that the short-list of posters you respond to will grow so short you will have nothing more to say.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    P.S. It's probably useless to say anything, as you have consistently ignored my advice to date. Don't be quick to attack those who come to the defence of some of my ideas. Read some of their histories first. These people have a well-established reputation on this board for being strong and caring Christians. The war they fight for the hurting souls around them have earned them a crown I am sure.

  • trevor
    trevor

    Jgnat

    As you started this thread and I have posted here but not replied to you, I feel like a gatecrasher who forgot to thank the host.

    Words have great value when communicating either feelings or ideas to other people that speak the same language. I read your chart with interest and see the point you are making. Once we explore abstract metaphysical notions a more flexible tool is needed.

    We run across phenomena for which no words have been invented or could be. I use the word phenomena loosely.

    To explore some things I find we need to alter our state of consciousness and use a different vehicle. The subject is too vast and unprovable for me to offer any more of value to the debate - but thanks for starting the thread.

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