Why Fundyism is Irrational

by jgnat 87 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    Shining One,

    In point of fact, I have read every one of your posts. I have analyzed them each for their argument style, continuity of message, lack of contradiction, and basis.

    Argument style is very weak. Except where you are reciting your doctrines of faith within your posts, you employ indecisive wording couched in ambiguity with a smattering of lofty verbiage. Presumably, you imagine this conveys the impression that you know what you are talking about.

    As to continuity of message, I can only tip my hat. Unlike Scholar, you have convinced me that you genuinely believe what you type here. Your message is unflinchingly constant, if a bit musty and tired in its execution.

    As far as I can determine, you do not contradict yourself. This is a mark of someone who is truly sincere in their beliefs and is a trait that I very much admire. You seem to be careful to allow room for your thoughts to change in many respects, except where you are reciting your doctrines of faith within your posts.

    Basis, however, basis seems utterly missing. You adamantly state as fact those things which you believe to be fact and seem to expect everyone to agree that these things are fact, then you ridicule and harass any who disagree with your assessment. That isn't how debate works. Hell, that isn't even how conversations work. In my experience, this shortcoming in communication style comes from one of two sources:

    (1) You don't know how to establish what you believe to someone else and you are ridiculing others out of a sense of frustration over their not "getting" what you haven't clearly shown in the first place.

    or

    (2) You know your subject so well that you can no longer think from the standpoint of someone who doesn't agree with your view of the surrounding issues. This leads to ridiculing from a sense of superiority born of becoming an expert in your field.

    From analyzing your posts, I lean toward the first explanation in your case. However, I've never met you and don't know your credentials/background/etc. so I am not passing judgment on you. Not that I would anyway, mind you. BTW, I don't care what you were talking about. You asked me a question that you probably intended as rhetorical. The resulting impression left a logical fallacy on the table as support for your views on using Science to "bolster" faith. In my estimation, what you and others of your persuasion doing is acting on a silly notion founded on anything BUT Scripture.

    I simply answered your rhetorical question and from that answer you derive, "You have not paid any attention to my posts. You don't have the foggiest idea what I am talking about." A bit freehanded with the assumption there, aren't we Shining One?

    OldSoul

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Woohoo! Attachments work again. Now I'd like to discuss the difference between Science and Pseudo-Science. Here's my mind map of the scientific method. Note the requirement for observable, testable elements for validation. Also interesting is that the map cycles back on itself, much as my reasoner's mind map does. Also note the lack of reference to authority. Scientists build on observation, not on literature or opinion. That about knocks out the rhetoric and the debunkers.

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    How can I explain my views...

    Shining One, I believe in Mohammed. I believe he existed, I believe he walked the earth, and I believe he became disenchanted with the effects of codified religion.

    The Quran was written after his death by faithful followers. It was added to, recopied countless times, and comes to us in a rough approximation of what his followers said Mohammed's teachings consisted of.

    Do I believe every word of it is correct? No. Can I be a Muslim and a Christian? Yes.

    Now, apply that thinking to Christianity and you may see where jgnat is coming from. Believe me, jgnat could explain your theology to you better than you could. She sees your point of view clearly, she just disagrees with it. Do you see her point of view? No. Not on any level. You are getting in the way of your own understanding.

    OldSoul

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    And my last diagram, how someone who follows Pseudo-Science may be thinking. It is similar to the Fundy map, either-or thinking, and very little admission of error.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Where Shining One went wrong was his first assumption, that I am somehow an opponent to Christianity. If he starts on that assumption, all the following conclusions will be wrong. jstalin, just for you, an updated Fundy Thought Map. Excellent contribution, thank you.

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    As an example of pseudo-science, I submit Drake's Equation. Variables, upon variable, upon variables, upon variables, none of which have values assigned to them, are asserted to offer some sort of probability that there is intelligent life on other planets.

    If you have ever wondered why we spend money on SETI, it is because of Drake's Equation. There is no rational cause for belief in life on other planets. Not until we observe life from or on another planet, at least.

    Drake's Equation is couched in scientific terms, it is strung together prettily on paper, and in the end we have only one value that we can reliably plug into any variable in such an equation. We know of 1 planet with intelligent life. Mathmeticians, help me out here. Can you determine the probability of intelligent life on other planets from such an equation? Plainly, the answer is no.

    It is scientific-sounding sophistry, pseudo-science, just like the attempts of theists to establish their beliefs on something more solid than faith.

    OldSoul

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    "Shining One" I already told you. Words can be tangled. Draw me a picture. Literally. I'm not just being cute, here. You will CONSTANTLY go around in circles with your WORDS until you establish some CLARITY.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Old Soul, could this explain the determined efforts to find signs of LIFE on other plantets/moons? If we had evidence of LIFE in at least one other place, would we have enough to create a probability?

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    jgnat,

    I think I understand your question. If so then, yes, belief in that formula is ultimately the reason for the determined effort to find life outside of earth.

    If you meant, "So that we can finally start viewing the probabilities realistically," sadly, no. The variables have all had values assigned, but the values are utter guesses. You can easily understand why there would be no "educated" guess available for how many stars there are, how many planets per solar system, how many of those planets are capable of sustaining carbon-based life (that assumption has always makes me laugh), of those how many actually would have developed life, of those that have developed life, how many would have developed intelligent life...

    There is no way to make such an equation workable in a method even closely resembling the Scientifc Method without a MUCH more clearly established initial data set. But they plugged in numbers anyway, and got a lot of money for SETI by doing it. Not that I mind them looking, so long as our children's intelligence doesn't suffer because of it. It would be a shame if they finally found intelligent life and discovered that they didn't regard us as intelligent life.

    Respectfully,
    OldSoul

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    That could explain, too, then, the determined effort to locate planets around other star systems. Pesky planets. If only they would RADIATE.

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