by kwintestal 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
OS - I did not bother to count them. But this is a doozy of an assertion without support;
[1] It is a peace and security that he gives even now to his body of earthly servants, his visible organization, in fulfillment of his ever-reliable promises. It is a peace and security that [2] we can enjoy only in association with his visible organization on earth.
I count two in these two sentences.
Jeff
BTW - where is Scholar when needed? Waiting.........................................................
I know that you are asking others "do THEY have scriptures to substantiate these teachings of the wbts".
To me it is obvious that you and Shadow for example, have done some deep studies of the bible or you would not have this kind of knowledge.
I was saying how difficult it was for me to do the same, without being so bored I would just get angry and quit the whole effort, when I found inconsistencies in the bible on same or similar subjects.
Because of this I never even tried to do any deep study of the bible.
Outoftheorg
Oldsoul,
Regarding resolving the question of the scriptural validity of the GB's authority:
Why do I care? Because I have family who are Witnesses, I have friends who are Witnesses, and I cannot figure out why I should be expelled for contradicting a teaching that is of human origin. If it is founded on Scripture, I am wrong and will do my very best to make right what damage I may have done to the faith of others. It is as simple as that. If it is not founded on Scripture, then the GB is wrong and I expect the same of them. Is that unreasonable?
Not only fair, it is a good stand for every JW to take. Few will seriously address these questions for fear of loosing friends and family as per GB rules.
Since these are "foundational doctrines" why are they not addressed in What Does the Bible Really Teach? The term "Faithful and Discreet Slave" does not appear in the publication, there is no mention that this "Slave" is a class of people; in fact, there is no mention of any requirement to submit to any authority except Jehovah and Jesus. There is also no mention that there is a corporate filter between the student and God when it comes to acquiring clear understanding of Scripture.
Damn. Since the teaching "the SPIRIT DIRECTED Faithful Slave CLASS dispenses NEW LIGHT to the inferior OTHER SHEEP" is not even mentioned in their publication What Does the Bible Really Teach? . . . what are my Witness friends and relative to conclude . . . . the Bible does NOT 'really teach' this?
Oldsoul, I think by the lack of scriptural response to this question you may have hit the WT's sandy foundation.
Shadow, Good to see you back. You are a brave JW for being willing to tackle this. Much more stimulating than your average Service Meeting.
Steve
Steve,
Good to see you. I agree with you that this type of discussion would make a good meeting.
Old Soul,
I'm back and will post more on this thread today.
Welcome to the JWD Service Meeting.
Lets first stand and sing a song together to open our Service Meeting
Song number 225 - - - "Thank You Jesus for Our UNited Nations Library Card"
(Sung with confidence and sincerity)
Once again we welcome all to the Service Meeting. We have an interesting program scheduled by the Faithful Slave for tonight.
First we will have the announcements.
After the announcements we are going to hear from brother Shadow as he discusses the subject of
"Scriptural Support for the Authority of the Governing Body"
This will be a 2 minute program including 115 seconds for questions and answers.
After Brother Shadows part the rest of the program will be cancelled due to lack of interest
Now lets give our undivided attention to Brother Shadow.
(chairman exits platform)
However, that entire argument is a side issue. A side issue that includes rampant unfounded assumptions. The discussion seems to be diverted to one you wish to have instead of staying on a track of providing any Scriptural proof regarding the points I raised. Again, you have not even addressed whether the Faithful and Discreet Slave has Scriptural support for its claim that (1) as a class they comprise (2) God's spirit-directed organization on earth today for the purpose of (3) discerning and dispensing "new light" to the (4) other sheep who can't get this light through any other means?
OS,
I am not trying to divert the discussion, we just have different perspectives on this issue. Let me try to illustrate. Imagine you are a soldier in General Patton’s army. He makes the claim that his current position and success as a general is due to the past experience he had as a Carthaginian fighting the Romans in a previous life. Additionally, his insulting views on non-whites and women are well known. You don’t believe in reincarnation, which he claims to be the reason he is now a general. Do you still submit to his authority? One soldier may decide that since Patton is crazy, he doesn’t have to obey his orders. Another soldier may agree that Patton is crazy, but still obeys orders because Patton is the general.
You are focusing on the claims of the GB, while I am trying to focus on their position. That is why I believe it is essential to determine whether JW’s could be a group that God is gathering together. The scriptures do clearly indicate a dichotomy in the world between those following Christ and those who don’t. So who might fit the bill?
Or as a Christian living in Nazi Germany, do you still pay taxes? Do you still obey traffic laws? Do you kill the Jews? Is Hitler a legitimate authority that should be obeyed to an extent? The parallel: as a JW do you wear JW clothes (suit, dress)? Do you go to meetings? Do you treat all df’d ones the same? From the Christian view there is no human authority that is absolute in spite of any claims to the contrary, whether it be Hitler or the GB or GWB.
Some scriptures indicating the existence of separate groups:
(Matthew 5:11-16) “Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU. “YOU are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its strength, how will its saltness be restored? It is no longer usable for anything but to be thrown outside to be trampled on by men. “YOU are the light of the world. A city cannot be hid when situated upon a mountain. People light a lamp and set it, not under the measuring basket, but upon the lampstand, and it shines upon all those in the house. Likewise let YOUR light shine before men, that they may see YOUR fine works and give glory to YOUR Father who is in the heavens.
(2 Corinthians 4:3-4) If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
(1 John 5:19-20) We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one. But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one
(1 Thessalonians 5:6) So, then, let us not sleep on as the rest do, but let us stay awake and keep our senses.
(Matthew 25:40) And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’
(Acts 15:14) Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.
(Titus 2:14) who gave himself for us that he might deliver us from every sort of lawlessness and cleanse for himself a people peculiarly his own, zealous for fine works.
Why do I care? Because I have family who are Witnesses, I have friends who are Witnesses, and I cannot figure out why I should be expelled for contradicting a teaching that is of human origin. If it is founded on Scripture, I am wrong and will do my very best to make right what damage I may have done to the faith of others. It is as simple as that. If it is not founded on Scripture, then the GB is wrong and I expect the same of them. Is that unreasonable?
No, you should not be expelled for contradicting a human teaching. No doubt some already have been and more will be in the future. Uriah also should not have been killed, but he was. Jehovah didn't often intervene in ancient Israel or in the 1st century to redress injustices. Same situation exists today. It is not an unreasonable expectation of the GB, but based on thousands of years o human history and current experience, it isn't going to happen until Jehovah does intervene.
Shadow,
I think there is really a fundamental difference in our approach. Do you believe there is no difference between rulership/governance over people and religious authority?
You keep using the comparison to King David. King David was not a religious leader. He did not deliver religious edicts to his people. He was a governmental ruler.
Pharisees and Sadducees would be a fitting comparison, but Jesus rejected their authority, encouraged others to reject their authority, and sought out those the Pharisees rejected. I can provide Scriptural examples of each of these, but I am sure you know where they are.
If religious authority should be viewed as equal to governmental authority, why are Catholics less correct than Witnesses?
Catholicism teaches things that are not based on Scripture and things that are directly contrary to Scripture. Jehovah's Witnesses teach things that are not based on Scripture and things that are directly opposed to Scripture. Do we draw the distinction between the two as to which things they are teaching falsely? If so, why? (1 John 4:1; Matthew 24:23-28; John 9:1-10:18; Mark 13:21-23)
By the measure the Jews used to determine a false prophet, for instance, the Catholic Church as an organization is squeaky clean. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22) Does that make them the true religion, whose authority must be obeyed?
Some scriptures indicating the existence of separate groups
I wholeheartedly agree!
Two separate groups are indicated in every verse you cited. Those who are blinded vs. those who are not, those who are perishing vs. those who are not, those who originate with God (see 1 John 4:1) and those who do not, those who are Christ's brothers and those who are not (among whom would be some who treated the brothers of Christ kindly, anyway), those taken out of the nations for God's name and those who are not, those delivered by the ransom and those who are not. Two groups. Like the sheep and the goats. Like the wheat and the weeds. Like the fish in the dragnet and those not caught. Like those invited to the feast and those not invited.
From these Scriptures, none of which even comes close to teaching the doctrines I asked about, I take it that you actually have trouble rationalizing this for yourself. If you are submitting as if to a governmental authority, please explain why Scripturally.
In other words, Scripturally speaking, why should I submit to the Catholic Church just because Uriah submitted to David's rulership.
Since you are focusing on the position held by the Governing Body and not on their claims, their failed prophecies, or their teachings, please explain why the same exact line of reasoning does not apply to the position held by the Papacy and Bishops of Roman Catholicism. The two claim the exact same position as far as I can tell. It is a clergy class complete with a doctrine of magisterium "teaching authority."
The only distinction I can see is that one authority does not publicly claim infallibility. But they expect the authority to be regarded as infallibile anyway and they punish dissenters as heretical.
No, you should not be expelled for contradicting a human teaching. No doubt some already have been and more will be in the future.
Well, I sincerely expect I will be. I hope you will still share a meal with me, anyway. Your heart must hurt for what you see.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
Hello again Shadow
Did you like my Service Meeting introduction for you? I hope it was not offensive.
That is why I believe it is essential to determine whether JW’s could be a group that God is gathering together. The scriptures do clearly indicate a dichotomy in the world between those following Christ and those who don’t. So who might fit the bill?
I appreciate that thought. I feel sorry when I think of how Jesus might have felt to prompt his comment:
"when the Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8
SOME ONE will fit the bill. I think he will or has 'found the faith' here. As your question states, "who might fit the bill" , not what ORGANIZATION. All the scripture citations you gave apply well to individuals. There is no hint in their context that they are actually predicting an organization. Even if God gathers these individuals into a "group" it would be called a congregation. There is nothing to hint that a "class" of men would rule over these individuals and only this class would be led by holy spirit.
Regardless, we are still looking for scriptural support, not for a people who would respond to the message of Jesus, but to specific Authority being give to a Class who are exclusively Spirit directed to dictate even the Conscience of Lessor Christians (other sheep). This is a tough one, but can you address it specifically? I hope we are not overwhelming you.
Any other JW lurkers? Oldsoul is honestly asking for his faith to be re-affirmed. Perhaps some Bethelites online who can help?
Steve
No, you should not be expelled for contradicting a human teaching. No doubt some already have been and more will be in the future. Uriah also should not have been killed, but he was. Jehovah didn't often intervene in ancient Israel or in the 1st century to redress injustices. Same situation exists today.
I cannot see the comparison between the Almighty putting Uriah to death, and one who is expelled and punished as an evildoer for recognition of the un-scriptural doctrine of his/her religion. In one case Jehovah acted [according to scripture at least], in the other man made religious institutions are involved.
Shadow - please address the correlation - as I see none here.
Jeff
AK-Jeff,
Uriah was the husband of Bathsheba. Uriah was sent to the front lines after David knocked up the man's wife. David was the authority Shadow was referring to, but David wasn't a religious authority, he was a political authority. You might have been thinking of Uzzah (grabbed the ark). Or maybe you were thinking of Uzziah (stricken w/ leprosy).
There still needs to be correlation on the comparison, because Shadow is seeming to equate religious and secular authority, in which case everyone should be Catholic. Otherwise, we are still living during the Great Apostasy and there would be no expectation of a gathering of people at this time.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
