TESTING the results of two different ways of thinking

by Terry 172 Replies latest jw friends

  • new light
    new light

    Hi, Terry. While I admire your intelligence and mastery of the language, I do feel you are quite biased in your thinking on this matter. It seems that you are still rebounding from the JW experience and are unable to even dip a toe into the waters of "mysticism", if it must be labeled as such. If you are going to label prayer as a "meaningless and time-wasting ritual" you should at least give it a fair shot and try it now that you have developed your own thinking power and healthy skepticism, if you have not already done so. If you have, then please accept my apologies.

    I'm not saying "you'll be amazed" or anything else prematurely, but I can say that, in my own personal experience, the results have forced me to question my previously iron dismissal of the value of prayer. I have no reason to believe I would be fooled by a "placebo effect", nor do I believe that simply saying things causes them to happen. I am saying that in the last two months or so since starting to pray, I have seen dramatic effects in ways that really make me sit down and rethink my atheism. Assuming there is a being that answers prayers, it would naturally follow that you would receive all the confirmation you need to satisfy your intellect, should you decide to ask.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien
    One of the great things about being confident that you did things God's way is that you never need to worry about second-guessing yourself.

    hmike,

    i'm sorry. you are always so collegial in debates, which is nice. but this sentence. do you see what you are saying? do you see how potentially dangerous it is to think like this?

    never second guess yourself? that's like being a witness! i hardly consider it normal to be like that anymore, honestly. if you had never second guessed yourself, would you have left da troof? what's to say that if you started second guessing yourself now, you wouldn't leave whatever faith you currently hold?

    i don't understand how anyone could live their life like this considering that the evidence for god's very existence is nil!

    sincerely,

    TS

  • Terry
    Terry
    I'm not saying "you'll be amazed" or anything else prematurely, but I can say that, in my own personal experience, the results have forced me to question my previously iron dismissal of the value of prayer. I have no reason to believe I would be fooled by a "placebo effect", nor do I believe that simply saying things causes them to happen. I am saying that in the last two months or so since starting to pray, I have seen dramatic effects in ways that really make me sit down and rethink my atheism. Assuming there is a being that answers prayers, it would naturally follow that you would receive all the confirmation you need to satisfy your intellect, should you decide to ask.

    I talk to God all the time whether he is THERE or not and whether he LISTENS or not.

    He is definitely going to hear what I have to say. I've been talking to god since I was a little boy.

    Prayer is something you do for yourself (like masturbation for release) and I'll have no part in yanking god for neural feedback. I talk to the invisible guy in the sky and if he doesn't know how to handle it I'm sure I'll hear about it eventually.

    When I was a JW my god talk took on a formality I was never comfortable with. "Heavenly Father Jehovah; we approach your throne of undeserved kindness in the merits of Christ Jesus' ransom sacrifice to.......blah blah blah..." Yuck.

    T.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    Cause and effect can be reversed at will and you can seek a really thrilling mystical reason behind anything you observe happening colored by your expectation it has hidden meaning.

    i've been looking for these words for a long time. did you steal them from my pantry?

    TS

  • rem
    rem

    I don't see anything wrong with calling Deepak Chopra an airy-fairy wingnut. He is. Sure he has done much good with his scientific training, but he has gone off the deep end with his untested, non-replicated theories.

    rem

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    hey rem, nice avatar.

    ...okay, as you were...

    i basically know nothing of chopra. but wikipedia documents some criticism:

    Criticism

    Of particular concern to his critics are his frequent references to the relationship of quantum mechanics to healing processes, which they consider part of a pattern of general confusion in the popular press regarding quantum measurement, decoherence and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

    Deepak Chopra is also criticized for overly mystifying Hinduism and Ayurveda (a system of medicine). His qualifications in Ayurveda are questioned and by shrouding it in elusive language, he is accused of alienating it from the mainstream and de-legitimizing it.

    In March 2003, shortly before the US-led Invasion of Iraq, Chopra on being asked for creative ideas, suggested that a new Disney World theme park in the Middle East would help to reduce fear and anger in children and that residents of Iraq should be provided free access to CNN, MTV and Nickelodeon [1] to expose them to the rest of the world. Chopra's proposals were widely ridiculed.

    and the skeptics dictionary has the following on him:

    http://www.skepdic.com/chopra.html

    TS

  • trevor
    trevor

    TESTING the results of two different ways of thinking -
    is questioning the value of pure logic based on what science presently knows versus what is being called mysticism. Some believe the two can exist together while others take an all or nothing approach. Convenient as it would be to have absolute certainty about how everything works in our world, I believe that room must be left for exploration and the possibility that we do not yet understand all the forces at work in the universe or ourselves.

    Deepak Chopra (or should we call him - Deep-end Chopra) has attempted to combine the value of both schools of thought. It may be convenient to dismiss him as a wing nut and find negative quotes about his work on the web in order to hold on to a mind set that offers absolute certainty. I had that as a Jehovah’s Witness and found that it caused me to have a closed mind. For every such quote there is a positive one and testimonies from the many people he has helped.

    Deepak Chopra does not need me to defend him, his work speaks for itself. I agree that he has some unusual beliefs and can see how he is leaving himself exposed to ridicule, but I do not dismiss him, wholesale because of this.

    I examine all his ideas and give him credit for trying to find an alternative way of healing to that offered by the drug companies and being prepares to see the benefits of both schools of thought. He was prepared to be right but also prepared to be wrong about his currently held medical ideas. It is through such open minded enquiry that the world has advanced.

    Chopra created a paradigm for exploring the healing process - a model he calls Quantum Healing. He recalls, "As doctors we are taught to prescribe tranquillisers for people who are feeling anxious to promote tranquillity. We give sleeping pills to people with insomnia. Quantum Healing looks past all the wonder drugs and modern technology to a natural way of healing which speaks to an integration of mind and body."

    Rather than turn his back on his conventional training, he extended his practice to bring together the best of ancient wisdom and modern science. In 1984, he helped to introduce Ayurvedic medicine to the United States, and within a year he established an Ayurvedic Health Centre of Stress Management and Behavioral Medicine in Lancaster, Massachusetts. He was also the founding President of the American Association of Ayurvedic Medicine. Since that time, he has emerged as one of the world's leading proponents of this innovative combination of Eastern and Western healing.

    I think it is important not to confuse such open minded exploration with a search for God. Many here react against anything mystical because of the anger they feel. Initially this was an anger towards God which developed into a belief that there is no God. So the anger has then become directed towards themselves for believing in a God and allowing such belief to affect their lives.

    Now this has become a hostility towards anything that is outside of their frame of reference, or anything that might lead back to the concept that they have rejected.

    This is totally understandable but absolute certainty has had to yield to new evidence many times particularly in the world of science. It is possible that we barely understand the way the world really works and have many new discoveries to make. They may shatter many of the beliefs that science presently accepts. A humble a flexible mind will cope with change far better than an opinionated mind. My comments are not directed to any particular person but just a few of my thoughts. I have enjoyed all your posts and think the sharing of your opinions helps to achieve balance.

    I simply say - Never say Never!

    Trevor

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    new light:

    I'm not saying "you'll be amazed" or anything else prematurely, but I can say that, in my own personal experience, the results have forced me to question my previously iron dismissal of the value of prayer. I have no reason to believe I would be fooled by a "placebo effect", nor do I believe that simply saying things causes them to happen. I am saying that in the last two months or so since starting to pray, I have seen dramatic effects in ways that really make me sit down and rethink my atheism. Assuming there is a being that answers prayers, it would naturally follow that you would receive all the confirmation you need to satisfy your intellect, should you decide to ask.

    The affects of prayer are not exactly placebo-like. Prayer offers the faithful person a hope, a sense of optimism that things will improve. The adjustment in the person's state of mind is achieved not by some external spirit forct but by the person by focussing their thoughts on their own hope that God will help them.

    Consider people with depression - while depressed, they think of something negative, and then start to dwell on that negative, and start to call to mind every other negative thing that has happened to them, and so their state of mind is completely geared to seeing everything in a negative light - as a direct result of the chemistry of their body being enforced by the physical affects of their fear, anxiety, and hopelessness, which are both triggers for, and reactions to, the downward-spiralling depressive state.

    When the faithful person prays regularly, they have a sense of hope and optimism, and they start to dwell on positive thoughts. People can see that they are more positive not because some external spirit creature has blessed him, but because his own body chemistry is being brought back into balance by his own thoughts.

  • new light
    new light
    The affects of prayer are not exactly placebo-like. Prayer offers the faithful person a hope, a sense of optimism that things will improve. The adjustment in the person's state of mind is achieved not by some external spirit forct but by the person by focussing their thoughts on their own hope that God will help them.

    Sounds to me like a perfect example of the placebo effect, which I stated would not fool me. I know about the effects of positive and negative thinking, and my statements about prayer hve nothing to do with either. After praying, thoughts occur that absolutely do seem to come from an external source.

    I completely agree with your statements about thinking oneself well, and the opposite, but I assure you that my experience with praying is in another class.

  • Terry
    Terry
    Convenient as it would be to have absolute certainty about how everything works in our world, I believe that room must be left for exploration and the possibility that we do not yet understand all the forces at work in the universe or ourselves

    This has nothing to do with anything we've discussed that I can see!

    What you are calling for is a statement of self-professed ignorance. Well heck, yes! What we don't know we are ignorant of. Isn't that pointless?

    A mystic does not EXPLORE anything. Science explores, measures, quantifies and clarifies the results. Mysticism has all the answers through a fluffy-puffy mechanism of "just knowing". They have no ignorance those wacky mystics!

    Deepak Chopra does not need me to defend him, his work speaks for itself

    What exactly IS the result of Chopra's work except "claims"? Any patent medicine in a sideshow has testimonials. They can't be tested.

    absolute certainty has had to yield to new evidence many times particularly in the world of science

    Are you absolutely certain of this?

    Science changes because it isn't about certainty; but, about testing claims that "seem" temporarily certain. That is what a THEORY is all about. It is the state of the art UNTIL it is falsified by new data.

    Tell me, will you, what changes have been made in Mysticism as the result of testing and new data? All the Yoga, Zen, Buddha, New Age claptrap has stayed the same over the passage of time with nothing much happening by way of updates or revisions or tossing out old claims.

    Isn't this a sign of certainty and stagnation?

    T.

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