TESTING the results of two different ways of thinking

by Terry 172 Replies latest jw friends

  • Terry
    Terry

    Mankind has had a pretty good track record of tackling the problems of life on Earth. Different folks have tried different strokes. You might say that life has been the crucible for testing an idea as to efficacy and the legacy of any idea is how well it worked.



    1.Rational (using the mind and reasoning on the basis of non-contradictory facts determined by testing).

    2.Mystical (relying on an imaginary source of authority whose power cannot be demonstrated; only asserted).

    The Mystic and the Rationalist are polar opposites. The Mystic gets others to do his bidding if he is at the top of the food chain. At the bottom the Mystic follows orders.

    The Rationalist thinks for himself as an individual. He tests ideas for validity and no authoritarian can veto facts by offering contrary opinion.

    Now, most of you folks here bristle at the above. I don't know why, but, you do. I merely cite TWO CATEGORIES. Why?

    I wish to demonstrate that you can chalk up human progress in knowledge and technology such as we have in the West today to Number 1 on the list.

    Number 2 has produced the religious philosophies that subjugate people to obedient submissive compliance (often with little self-benefit other than belief it will be profitable AFTER they die.)

    Now, if you can't come this far with me I can see that you can't go still farther.

    I think you are viewing the above two categories as MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE within people and their institutions. But, people who are Mystics would not survive very long at all if they UTTERLY disregarded logical thinking! They'd be swallowed up in no time at all. So, mystical people have been able to survive and propagate on subsistence levels for thousands of years by the efforts of an astonishingly few logical and creative persons in societies ruled by mystical mumbo jumbo. You might say the cost of progress in mystical regimes is quite dear to the majority.

    The technologies of China come BECAUSE OF or IN SPITE OF the belief system there at the time of the advancements? At what cost did progress come in human lives? Chinese ideograms, gunpowder, fireworks and paper have done little to prevent millions (if not billions) of people from perishing at the whims of overlords whose mystical sway over the highly expendable common man are the stuff of lore, legend and history.

    In the West, the superstitious sway of the Catholic Church held mankind in its mystical grip for practically a millennium. Men of science were given begrudgingly little attention unless their efforts could improve the dominance of the power structure. Politicians and Prelates could pretend to give lip service to rational thought; but, the fruits of those thoughts were purchased, as always, in human blood.

    The birth (or REBIRTH) of learning, progress and advancement of mankind came when the Catholic Church could finally be seen as an object of critical thinking! The iron fist of the Inquisition silenced critical thought effectively until the Bible was translated into the vulgar tongue and Martin Luther nailed his critical thoughts to the door in 1517.

    CRITICAL THOUGHT wasn't easy because it was still laced with superstition. The mystic taint seeped into art, literature, philosophy and politics no matter how determined men were to think for themselves rather than succumb to the tyranny of Authority whose source was invisible.

    Here is where I like to divide the two groups of men, the rational and the mystical into camps of Aristotle and Plato. But, it is a loose analogy at best.

    The problem Greek philosophy had was the ethos of STUBBORN refusal to TEST their ideas by practical means! Without the testing the phoney baloney remained on the shelf right next to the pearls of great price. Not until the SCIENTIFIC METHOD broke this glass wall of non-testable thought by advancing the idea of attacking one's own hypothesis to determine where error lies---not until then---did the Renaissance really begin.

    So, when I present Aristotle as the shining knight of LOGIC, it is because he invented the syllogism and not because he freed himself entirely from the tyranny of Plato's ideal forms. At least Aristotle thought reality was real. Plato didn't. And neither has any mystic since him.

    You see, Mystics have TWO WORLDs. The world all of us live in (the real one) is UNreal to a Mystic. It is of little or no account WHEN COMPARED to the IDEAL WORLD which can be heaven, paradise, nirvana, etc. which they are peddling to those whom they wish to ensnare and enslave. Religion is largely selling the World to Come in place of the toil in this fake world of now.

    The RATIONAL man (few escape the infection entirely of the mystic) at least demands accountability in math, science, commerce and everyday life which is demonstrable. In the West we have the testable ethos: let the buyer beware! And we don't just apply it to the marketplace. We give lip service to proving that assertions have merit only when tested.

    Yet, the West is so drunk on the invisible claims of mysticism, it is horribly difficult to separate CLARITY of thought from WISHFUL THINKING in everyday life. So, America is rife with people who actually accept the supernatural as though it were identical with the natural.

    So, when I cite the differences between the EAST and the WEST I do not ignore the poisonous philosophy of goofy supernaturalism. I use the effect (the powerful effect) of logic based technology to illustrate the triumph of RATIONAL THINKING in creating the disproportionate wealth and largesse of the West as opposed to the EAST which, largely, suffers the effect of mystical backwash in poverty, oppression and disease, death and ignorance. Ask yourself what has the religious belief of INDIA given to its people COMPARED WITH the actual benefit of education and technology from the West?

    If you cannot look at the longevity of people or their status as an indicator of success in applying rational ideas to life itself---then, I'm wasting my time arguing with you.

    The life span of the average Chinese person is not something that sells their mindset to me as a thing to be desired. Communist philosophy is mystical and the after effects of living for the collective has been a bloody disgrace. So too in what was once the U.S.S.R. where religion vanished underground and the Communist mysticism neatly replaced it. Individuality was supressed for good reason. Man did not belong to himself. Self was eradicated. There was only blind obedience to the STATE which was the mystical authority.

    Why do Mormon's have a better lifestyle than Jehovah's Witnesses?

    Answer: the rational extent of Mormon policy allows success, education and public service tempered with economic awareness and practical social programs.

    The Jehovah's Witnesses postpone THIS LIFE (for all practical benefits) and trade their servitude for THE NEXT LIFE.

    This illustrates the medicinal effects of RATIONAL thinking over MYSTICAL thinking. Mormon's are just a teeny bit more rational in their mysticism and the results are dramatic.

    To conclude, then, I point to the differences between the EAST and the WEST as emblematic of the outworking of two modes of thinking. But, it isn't just Global. It is societal.

    Tibet was utterly mystical and caved in to the terror of the Communists. Mystics in Tibet did not defend themselves (i.e. impractical) while the Communists used armies to destroy them (practical enforcement of policy). The morality of the practical army is hideous; but, the suicide of the non self defense stance is ridiculously impractical.

    IF ONLY THERE WAS clear cut examples of Logical and practical wisdom completely untainted by Mysticism I'd point to them. But, Western Science labors mightily under the burden of self-defeating limits imposed by the Mystics of the Christian religion.

    Next time you turn on the TV and look at the plight of people in some part of the Earth you might want to ask yourself the following questions:

    1.Was there an element of wishful-thinking or belief (that caused this disaster) present in the mind's of the victims?

    2.What is the nature of the Authority in charge? Is it a case of obey-or-else?

    3.Is there a religious fervor behind the failure to face the most practical course of action?

    The bottom line of Mysticism is that it makes HUGE CLAIMS of benefit which it cannot back up IN THIS LIFE.

    In America and Great Britain, to the extent these societies have employed rational and practical logic to problem solving their power, wealth and autonomy have increased and along with it the overflow has lifted the status of its citizenry.

    To the extent there has been blind compliance to an invisible ethos of blind authority which says "do this--or else!) you will find the tragedies unfolding. Trading your life for an invisible reward is mystical. Ask yourself how many men have died senselessly for an IDEAL? That is the disease of such thinking.

    This life is the PRACTICAL life and the ONLY life we get to live. If you say: NO! You cannot prove it. You can only assert it as all mystics must do.

    The WEST vs the EAST in the final analysis is rationality vs mysticism and the mixed bag of one vs the mixed bag of the other intermixed disproportionately.

    T.

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    Terry...too much space between paragraphs...I'm wearing out my mouse.

    u/d

  • Terry
    Terry
    Terry...too much space between paragraphs...I'm wearing out my mouse.

    Each time I introduce an "edit" the space grows larger.

    I've tried a trick or two that was given to me by Talesin (I think) all to no avail!

    Must be the work of the gods!

    T.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Do you have a third way of thinking to use, with which to judge the other two?

    How do you make it a genuine double-blind study?

    Shall we start with your paradigm or mine?

  • Terry
    Terry
    Do you have a third way of thinking to use, with which to judge the other two?

    How do you make it a genuine double-blind study?

    Shall we start with your paradigm or mine?

    Dropping an egg on the floor tests the integrity of the egg well-enough as measured against gravity :)

    Life gives us daily updates in the form of successes and failures for our policies.

    If we can't measure the difference; boy!--we are in sad shape indeed.

    Believe what we will, we still live in the real world and what happens to us proceeds from confrontations unavoidable.

    The Christian Scientist can die from an illness which (to him) does not exist.

    The Hindu can starve to death in a pasture full of sacred cattle.

    The Jehovah's Witness can sell his house and Pioneer full time as he tears the pages from his 1975 calendar in exasperation.

    And many is the parent who prays for mercy over the child who dies.

    To think or not think is our choice. The content of our thought can be real or illusory. The progress report comes at the end of each day as we lie in bed and count the costs of our beliefs.

    The Mystic may chide us for our reliance on reality; but, he always leaves through the doorway.

    T.

  • trevor
    trevor

    Well Terry I am in an unusual position - But you don’t want to know about that.

    You take an extreme position which totally opposes any kind of mysticism. Others adopt religion at the expense of pure logic. The unusual position I find myself in is that find benefit in both. I am a logical person but combine a certain amount of mysticism with this in my life.

    I have worked as an engineer and a hypnotherapist. I guess that sums up my diversity. I could write many words more but, unlike you I don’t type at warp speed, and If I write too much no one will bother to read it.

    I would just like to say this. I have no time for organized religion or waiting for a blessing from a judgmental God. Despite this I have experienced many vivid premonitions and insights that were totally born out in reality.

    Nothing I could ever read of be told would convince me that such things were possible. I have personally known the benefit of entering altered states of consciousness. You seem to think that the mind is a stop or go machine - sleep wake. In fact it has many levels and some of them have great benefit.

    The conscious state is only one. You have referred to meditation as ‘flipping out.’ Some states of contemplation or meditation are in fact heightened states of consciousness.

    I could go on but I realize you have by now concluded that I am a nutter, so I will end here and hope that my few words will help others to see that the mind has many states of awareness and all have value. Albert Einstein would understand.

    trevor

  • Terry
    Terry
    Nothing I could ever read of be told would convince me that such things were possible. I have personally known the benefit of entering altered states of consciousness. You seem to think that the mind is a stop or go machine - sleep wake. In fact it has many levels and some of them have great benefit

    When we evaluate our belief system "who" or "what" is doing the evaluating but the mind using the belief software itself!

    If I put on dark glasses and look outside I might think it is late evening when it is high noon. I'd need outside information added to my visual information to correctly conclude the difference.

    Your "states of consciousness" are not objective. They are subjective. That means nothing except that I CAN'T TEST THEM and neither can anybody else to give you the OUTSIDE information to tell you what color glasses you are viewing with.

    That is the essential core of the differences between one mode of thinking and the other.

    YOU ASSERT something which others cannot test. That is what makes it seemingly useful to you and not at all useful to me.

    T.

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother
    This life is the PRACTICAL life and the ONLY life we get to live. If you say: NO! You cannot prove it. You can only assert it as all mystics must do.

    Surely there is room for an element of mysticism (if that is what you wish to call it) in the rational balanced approach to life,without going all out, as the Tibetan monks. There are many things in life that are not explained by rational science. I see nothing wrong in acepting that the mysteries of life leave room for a higher powr

    BTW . One mans "proof " may be to his critics , merely an assertion.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Terry:Is destruction testing the only absolute? Jiminy Cricket!

    Your "states of consciousness" are not objective. They are subjective. That means nothing except that I CAN'T TEST THEM and neither can anybody else to give you the OUTSIDE information to tell you what color glasses you are viewing with.

    Looks like you're making my case for me...

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Trevor:Though you may have got a different impression, from all my posts on religion, our perspectives aren't too divergent. I see religion as a tool - nothing more.

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