by Leolaia 66 Replies latest watchtower bible
What can I say? The gal's a genius, but you already knew that! Unfortunately Bibilical exegesis doesn't pay too well. And from the time stamp on most of your submissions, Leo, I don't imagine you're getting much sleep!
BTW, if I remember correctly, Russell identified the Two Witnesses in Sackcloth of Rev. 11 as the Old and New Testaments.
Seriously, Leo, kudos on your great work.
I'm overwhelmed by this. I'm at work but this thread's a definite keeper. I'll probably finish reading it by next WEEK. Just wanted to chime in Leo, that your work DEFINITELY is appreciated.
Sheesh. I wish I had 1/10th the brain power you have.
Dear Leolaia,
"Then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be betrayed into his hands and he shall do godless things that have not been done since the beginning of the age. Then human creation shall pass into the fire of testing and many shall be caused to stumble and be lost, but those who persevere in their faith shall be saved by the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of truth first the sign of extension in heaven next the sign of the trumpet call and third the resurrection of the dead. Then the world shall see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven and all the holy ones with him, on his royal throne, to judge the world-deceiver and to reward each according to his deeds. Then the evil shall go away into eternal punishment but the righteous shall enter into life eternal, inheriting those things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and which has not arisen in the heart of man" (Didache 16:4-9; as reconstructed by Alan Garrow).
did you know that in bringing your work to us or into the light for everyone to see could be part of a sign .....And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
Great job, I think.
love michelle
Excellent, perhaps your best yet. It may be relevant that some scholars understand the Jewish core was actually 2 separate works sewn together and slightly doctored by the Jewish Christian interpolator. Chapters 20-22 roughly approximate the second apocayptic work utilized. This explains it''s unique structure and dependence upon Ezk and yet it's overtly Jewish flavor.
Wow, this is incredible. You are obviously much more advanced down a path that I aspire to traverse. I read this quickly but am going to study in greater depth. I have been thinking about some of this in depth recently and a lot of what you have here makes sense to me. A rea eye-opener.
Terrible of me to skip to reply without reading much - but Ah tired Honeys an' goin' to me scratcher.
"No man was able to number." The concept of an undefined "infinity" was an anthema to greek philosophy - hence the famous mockery of it in the race between Achilles and the Tortoise: (tho I think the joke is on the non believer in infinity)
Chasing the tortoise, Achilles must traverse half the distance between them, then half that distance, etc, so he will never catch up with the crawler.
The writer (NOT the Apostle John, the Friend of Jesus) was simply saying that the crowd was a number bigger than anything the counting system he knew could accommodate.
Until Western Mathematics get away from Aristotle and "nature abhors a vacuum" (ergo 'nothing' is a non-existent concept) and accepted eastern ideas of '0' it was impossible to do math in the modern way.
"The Sand reckoner" ( proving for any number a, a+1 is greater), was important, but 1st cent. western mathematics had a finite system of counting)
HB (of the "stop rambling and go to bed" class)
Hi Leolaia,
Thanks for the detailed answer. I very much enjoyed reading it and it cleared up ALOT!
However I have 2 nagging questions I am trying to resolve. Please answer them here and/or email me directly at [email protected]
Those who are raised in the "first resurrection" are "the souls of all who had been beheaded for having witnessed for Jesus ... those who refused to worship the Beast or his statue and would not have the brand-mark on their foreheads or hands" (20:4). The resurrected are all those who died in the "great tribulation", and those martyred beforehand (cf. ch. 6), and they all had refused the Beast's mark. According to 13:15-17, all those who refused to worship the Beast or refused the Beast's mark was "put to death". This does not leave any group still living by the time of the "first resurrection" since everyone who rejected the Beast's mark was killed off by the Beast and everyone who accepted it was executed by God and his angels (14:9-11).
Then who does the Devil try to mslead after the 1000 yrs?
And this makes sense because people who haven't died are not resurrected and only those in the "first resurrection" are those who reign with Christ and serve as priests of God. So those in the "first resurrection" do not constitute a "third group", they are the same people as those who were martyred by the Beast. The second group, those who bore the "mark of the Beast" (and "the rest of the dead") are raised in the "second resurrection" (20:5, 11-15).
Who are the rest of the dead?
Please help!
Thanks so much
Hi Laoliaia
THanks for your detailed post regarding the GC and 144000. It cleared up ALOT!
I have two nagging questions below...please reply either here or directly to me at [email protected]
Thanks much
Those who are raised in the "first resurrection" are "the souls of all who had been beheaded for having witnessed for Jesus ... those who refused to worship the Beast or his statue and would not have the brand-mark on their foreheads or hands" (20:4). The resurrected are all those who died in the "great tribulation", and those martyred beforehand (cf. ch. 6), and they all had refused the Beast's mark. According to 13:15-17, all those who refused to worship the Beast or refused the Beast's mark was "put to death". This does not leave any group still living by the time of the "first resurrection" since everyone who rejected the Beast's mark was killed off by the Beast and everyone who accepted it was executed by God and his angels (14:9-11).
Who does the Devil try to mislead after the 1000 yrs if no one is left?
And this makes sense because people who haven't died are not resurrected and only those in the "first resurrection" are those who reign with Christ and serve as priests of God. So those in the "first resurrection" do not constitute a "third group", they are the same people as those who were martyred by the Beast. The second group, those who bore the "mark of the Beast" (and "the rest of the dead") are raised in the "second resurrection" (20:5, 11-15).
Who are the rest of the dead?
There are 2 battles? What humans are left for the 2nd battle if all who accepted the mark are killed in the first?
IH,
According to the reconstruction I mentioned on your thread, chapters 13--16 belong to the tradition which has the final battle in 19:11-21 but no millenium (20:1-10,13-15). Whatever the case, I fail to see how the woe on those who accept the mark of the Beast in 14:9-11 imply any chronology. Final condemnation in the final judgement is what awaits them -- not necessarily violent death before the final battle or millenium.
And of course the "rest of the dead" refers to the widespread doctrine of general resurrection (not limited to those who had anything to do with the Roman "beast").
This was interesting to read.
I confess this is far from my field of expertise, but admire the scholarly presentation. It also make very clear how a simple presentation can be made of the contradiction between Dubbie doctrine and textual analysis of Revelation. Acually, it is the first time I've revisted that scripture for a decade and a half, and I'm amazed I didn't... ANYONE didn't notice it. It's not so much textual analysis than it is reading the bloddy text.
Woof woof, ding ding, drool drool.
