The 144,000 and the Great Crowd of Revelation

by Leolaia 66 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • amommy

    Wow your thread was indepth and lengthy ...but so awesome your time invested in sharing! I am however having to read and reread to understand your thoughts. When reading Revelation 14:5(They Never allowed a lie to pass their lips and no fault can be found in them) This is speaking of the 144,000, WTB&TS so called Faithful and Discreet Slave . I thought of how that can not be them with all their erred ways ! 1975, 1914 etc... etc.... etc...

  • eyeslice

    An exellent post Leolaia,
    I recently re-read the book of Revelation myself, particularly the parts about the 144,000, and came to many of the same conclusions. Also, I re-read the gospel of John to see if I could find any clues to the JW doctrine associatiating the "other sheep" with the Great Crowd. Nothing I am afraid - I looked on the Watchtower CD and I can find no WTB&TS 'theological' arguement for this - I guess this is another thing we took as being from the faithful and discreet slave.

  • yaddayadda

    Cripes, how do you come up with this stuff Leolaia? Amazing. You must be a college professor right?

  • Judc

    I think the one connection the WTS tries to draw between the 144,000 and the "anointed" Christians going back to the first century is through the description of the the 144,000 being the firstfruits to God and the Lamb--firstfruits referring to the "first Christians", or first in line. How would one respond to that?

  • Narkissos

    In apocalyptic thought individual or even group "salvation" is never the ultimate goal, or end of the story. The last horizon is always a universal, cosmic renewal -- the "age to come," the "new heavens and new earth," the "new creation," the "new (cosmic) birth" (palingenesia, Matthew 19:28).

    The word and notion of "firstfruits" (aparkhè) express the relationship between the present "salvation" of the "chosen few" and this final perspective where "God is all in all," as Paul expresses it in Stoic manner. The point is that something is given, set apart, now, as a prolepsis, both anticipation and token (pars pro toto) of the "new world". Whether it is something of the divine realm given to mankind (such as the Holy Spirit as "firstfruits," in Paul) or something of the present creation consecrated into the eternal world of God (in Revelation, the 144,000 "bought" from the earth onto Mt. Zion), the temporal / provisional idea is the same.

    Imo the WT modifies the scriptural perspective in adding a further link/step between the present, limited, proleptic "salvation" and the final, cosmic, "fulfillment". What it now describes as "the great crowd" is not yet the "new creation," but might as well be described as its "firstfruits". If the "anointed" are the "firstfruits" of a second class, right in the current "old world," the metaphor has lost its final reference and the original apocalyptic perspective has been lost.

  • stillAwitness

    I just wanted to let you know Leo that your research is greatly appreciated. I have all your threads in my Favorites and I promise whenever I am finally ready to really dive into the deeper meanings of the "truth" I will.

  • lovelylil


    Thanks you so much for the very detailed writing on revelation. I have recently taken up researching the WT's claim of ony 144,000 being heavenly and have been able to debunk it. But I admit, I do not like the book of Revelation because I am not that intersted in prophecy. However, recently I have been reading it much more. I am especially interested in the image set up in the holy place.

    I have saved your research and already started reading it. Great job, so far I see that you are so correct with your interpretations and you explained it so much better than I could have. It is written in a wonderful way to be easily understood. So thanks a lot and God bless, Lilly

  • logic&reason

    Wow, this is great research!

    I stumbled onto this thread from a link in another.

    Great stuff.

  • still_in74

    ok wow.... I pasted this into a Word Doc at 7.5 font ------- 18 pages!

    This gonna take some time.... Thanks Leolaia!

  • greendawn

    This doctrine may also be a way to consolidate the control of the inner circle over the JW masses who if they are not part of the new covenant they can have no word in the way the org is being run they are distanced from any authority. And of course the relatively few JWs that are part of the covenant but not part of the inner circle are totally ignored, the whole idea is that the latter consolidate a monopoly of power.

    Otherwise the existence of two classes of christians (as if the JWs are christians!) is a grossly erroneous and destructive teaching.

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