by noidea 77 Replies latest jw friends
*****************************************************************************************
Wow I sure want to see what response Noidea will have Realelder I can't beleive we would say what he just said.
*****************************************************************************************
The Never Ending Search For Truth
It seems to me the first misunderstanding when we talk about unconditional love is love is equated with the things we do to express it, but things like hugs and kisses and kind acts is not love itself. The other part is of course the unconditional aspect, and I don't believe that is quantitatively unlimited in terms of the way it's expressed, (atleast in time) whether it's emotional or physical/material in some sense. But to the extent you are able perhaps you can express love toward all.
Naturally, when we think of love we think of giving or receiving love as people, but I think ultimately if you want to talk about unconditional love in terms of an absolute, spiritual sense you have to stop distinguishing between subject and object. Of course, this is where most people will not go, atleast for some people out there who are not close to them. It seems to imply that judgement is involved, because how do you decide who you do love unconditionally, if it's just a matter of loving or not loving as Tracy pointed out? So it also has to do with acceptance. I think most of us can agree that we can show a certain kind of love for human beings in general, even if some of us may feel there are individuals qualify as exceptions to the rule.
Maybe another way of looking at this is that love is itself a condition. I tend to look at it like this: The expressions of love are limited, love itself is not. Most of the time it seems to me that when we talk about love it sounds like some kind of limited, quantified resource, like there's a love store out there somewhere or a love bank. Just as we say: "I love you so MUCH!" (how much?) I just don't think that model applies. If you are "tuned in" to love itself, whatever you think that is, I don't think you'd be too upset if you're not "getting" it from expected "sources," INCLUDING family. In fact I think that's one thing that I learned while I was a witness, (notice I don't say learn FROM the witnesses or the organization) not that I would discard my family, but it's kind of a matter of putting things in perspective. I guess basically, I would say that love is where you find it. No it isn't the same, but why spend time dwelling on what you don't have if you have people who will love you? I think that maybe people who suffer a loss of love from a family member, perhaps due to DA/DF'ing, may find that there is just as "much" or even more love "out there" in some cases, if only one shifts their focus. Remember how in the organization we used to say you have a spiritual family even if your fleshly family aren't witnesses? Well I think that's still true in principle, it's just not the people in the organization.
"Knowing others is wisdom. Knowing the self is insight. Mastering others requires force. Mastering the self requires true strength." -Tao Te Ching, Chapter 33
Winston,
I went over your post and could see nothing offensive.
It is your honest opinion and that is welcomed here.
I was wondering if you have any children?
I have a daughter, When I became a parent I told my mother " I understand now how much you love me".
I talk about unconditional love because love is an emotion that can't or shouldn't be turned on and off like a light switch.
Taking away our love should not be used as a form of punishment. We can expect our children to make mistakes or a wrong turn in life. What do we do about it? Try and be there for them no matter what.
When a parent treats a child like Shaneliza & Babykins have been treated, they have conditioned their love. Did they take wrong steps? Probably, but how can shutting them and their children out be of any help to show them needed changes in one's life? It will only make them bitter and less likely to see where they went wrong.
Yes, I agree unconditional love can only be proven in time. It is a gift you give and ask or expect nothing in return. You can have love for someone, and disapproval of there actions but that doesn't mean you take that love away. 1 Cor. 13:4-7 & 1 Peter 4:8
Real Elder,
I appreciate you being so honest. Your children must be grateful to you for the way they were raised.
How long ago has it been since you read Crisis of Conscience? & Have you also read In Search of Christian Freedom?
Another question, You stated:
. If they were not, there would be an incredible amount of media coverage about this "cult".
RealElder,
Coming back to the ex-witness Edward Dunlap: he was for many years the Registrar of the sole missionary school of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead, also a major contributor to the organization's Bible dictionary (Aid to Bible Understanding[now titled Insight on the Scriptures]) and the writer of its only Bible commentary (Commentary on the Letter of James)
He had a huge responsibility at the headquarters in Brooklyn; the only "crime" he committed was that he dared to express a difference of viewpoint (a minor thing) on certain teachings and for that he was disfellowshipped and stripped of all responsibilities wwithin the organization, i.e. becoming a lifelong outcast, a renegade, "wordly criminal" in the eyes of the true believers...
Incidentally, Schroeder, who is part of the Governing Body even today, made himself conflicting comments with reference to the starting date being 1957 instead of 1914, the beginning of the last days...Schroeder insisted that other elders within the GB study his stern viewpoint of changing this "important" and trendsetting date from 1914 to 1957!! This is true in the truest sense of the word...It really happened and yet Schroeder was never rebuked or disfellowshipped for his shattering viewpoint, which would have been damaging to the organization to say the least.....
These revelations are only the tip of the iceberg RealElder....
Richie :*)
You are the music as long as the music last...............
Thank Noidea for not taking me the wrong way.
Yes I do have children or should I say raise two children of which I am not the natural father.
And I agree with you as to how a parent should raise their child and that shunning is something evil as done in the Org. I have a sister(fleshly) who got preagnant at 14 and was not even baptized, but in those days they would disassociate you anyway, and she was.
It was not a good thing, it didn't help her, it only made things worse for her.
I guess when I hear people talking about unconditional Love I won't take it to mean it in the absolute sense because thats what I think they really mean(not total absolute unconditional).
Anyway I have learned over the years that people that talk about how great their love is, well lets just say "it's only words" so I don't put much stock in those type of words.
I find that the people who are really loving have joy in doing it and don't need to tell every they are, it's to self severing.
The Never Ending Search For Truth
Winston,
I see where you're coming from now and I've got no quarrel with what you're saying.
Dedalus
Welcome RealElder!
A question for you.
You say that you are not on the way out of the Org.
How do you think Jehovah views the Jehovahs Witness GOVERNING BODY?
They have gotten soooo many things WRONG. My own personal view is that Jehovah will hold them accountable for using HIS name in relation to such FALSE prophesying. They DID prophecy….and got it very wrong.
I feel that Jehovah is MOST angry at their presumptuousness. I’m sure that you are aware of examples in the scriptures where Jehovah show’s just how he feel about ones who are PRESUMPTUOUS.
I, personally cannot reconcile being part of an Org. that has done BIG style, some of the very things that Jehovah clearly warns against.
I’m sorry if this is way off topic, can ignore my post if you like/do not have time to answer. Perhaps I’ve given you something to think about.
Peace
Latte
RealElder,
Might I say that your thoughts are very refreshing. I probably would not be out of the org. if there had been more elders like you!
I am in the same boat as Shaneliza and Babykins. My parents speak to me if I call them. But they show no interest in my personal life whatsoever and they express no desire to meet my "worldly" husband. Through mail and telephone, he has shown them nothing but kindness and reasonableness. But my mother especially has returned it with name calling, imputing bad motives and sheer nastiness.
My last conversation with her was about them not sending us a first year anniversary card. We had sent them a card and a gift for their anniversary which is two days after ours. Her response to my query was "I simply don't care. I don't know your husband and it (the anniversary doesn't matter to me". I was deeply hurt. As this choice of not meeting him has been entirely up to them. Although frequently she has tried to put the blame on us.
I feel that many of your expressions would be shared by my Father. But I am truly at a loss and confused as to how to deal with their attitude. At this point, I am hurt not to call them for quite awhile. Let me just mention, since I married my husband and left the org. a year ago, they have not called or communicated in any way once. It has always been me that communicates. They never ask anything about my new life or show any interest whatsoever.
I have been greatly intrigued by your posts and you attitude!
TW
Babykins,
Thank you for your kinds words. It is always nice to know that there are people out there who understand what I have been through. It has been a long time since I've been out of the org., but the pain never truly goes away. No matter how old we get, we still need our parents. But I realized a long time ago that emotional blackmail is not a game I want to play. My freedom is worth this pain. Knowing my children have grown up in a non-judgemental atmosphere, and will never have to CHOOSE between their parents and their RIGHT to live their own lives, is what makes it easy for me to face each day.
