The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom 303 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • myelaine

    dear JD...

    you said, "I'm only defending the Quran."

    my copy of the koran (10:68-69) directly contradicts the bible and the bible accuses the koran, 1 john 2:22-23.

    WHY are you motivated to defend the koran?

    love michelle <3

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    @simon actually yea I've said the same about the bible. Just like Muslims don't listen to the Quran, Christians largely don't listen to the bible. I defend the bible and not Christianity.

    Example in current events - the bible DOES NOT condemn gay marriage. The bible says homosexuality is wrong - true. But eating from the tree of knowledge was wrong, David's census was wrong, the stoning of Steven was wrong... Point being that the bible does not restrict free will. If you are gay and want to marry your partner, the bible allows this because you are a person with free will. The bible says homosexuality is wrong, but it also says only Christ judges and we are to judge nobody, treat all with love and the way we want to be treated. Hence, Christians speaking out against gay persons, and trying to hinder gay marriage are overstepping their bounds. I would defend the bible for what it actually teaches and condemn the Christians for doing this.

    as far as the Book of Mormon goes- that book is insane. I won't touch it because it is not inspired and goes beyond the bible. The Quran does not so far as I can tell, and as I've stated previously - is supposed to be taken along with scripture.

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake


    the scripture there in 1 john states that those who deny Jesus is the Christ are a liar and the anti Christ. The Quran doesn't do this:

    The Quran chapter 3 verse 45: "The Angels said, "Mary, God gives you news of a Word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to God."

    the Quran teaches Jesus was the Christ, the messiah and gods agent in earth through Mary. The Quran condemns the trinity, which I also agree with as I've stated elsewhere the bible does not support the trinity. A Christ is merely gods representative. 

    Moses was a Christ, Jesus was a Christ - and the Quran teaches this. There is a verse in another sura that even states Jesus death was a death "equal to Adam" which is a clear reference to the role he played as the messiah in repurchasing mankind. 

    Like I said earlier, many many times the Quran states it is not a replacement of scripture but a confirmation of it (referring to the bible). It is encouraged to read the bible and the Quran together, with one as a confirmation of the other. I have found no contradictions in the Quran, and I would submit if you appear to have found one, that the full harmony of Quranic verse would, together, dismiss it. 

  • myelaine

    dear JD...

    the koran denies the Fatherhood of God and the Sonship of Jesus. (Therefore the bible accuses the koran) The idea of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, coming to redeem mankind by the shedding of His blood to be a propitiation for sins is foreign to the koranic text. (Therefore denying the entire NT premise of "Christ") 

    The koran denies that Jesus was crucified...

    "That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the messanger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him. Only the likeness of that was shown to them. And those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge. But only conjecture to follow, for a surety they killed him not-nay, Allah raised him up unto himself; Allah is exalted in power, wise." Surah 4:157

    yes, there are isolated texts in the koran that do seem to agree with the bible but these same texts can also be contradicted by other individual koranic texts as well as when the whole corpus of the koran is considered. That is why many people have found that a study of the koran proves that it isn't in harmony with the bible. If you were to read some of the hadiths they go into the details of how the jewish rabbis rejected mohammad's claim to prophethood and then he turned on the jewish people all together for this slight. The hadiths are very important to the story of the rise of islam. They put the actual sayings of the koran in context. Otherwise there is rambling with no reason. The koran and the hadith are seen as a two edged sword, where the bible alone stands sharper than a two edged sword.

    Incidentally, that is WHY the bible alone can condemn the two edged sword of the mormons which is the bible + the book of mormon AND the WTBTS bible + their unique doctrines expoused in the pages of their other books.

    love michelle

    p.s. still not sure why you defend the koran. Is it simply because you can't see any contradiction to the bible?

  • cofty

    JD - Your position is so irrational as to make me think you cannot be sincere.

    By the way every Muslim accepts the Hadith as authoritative. It is a collection of the sayings and acts of Mo the child rapist who they view as the epitome of moral rectitude.

    The hadith is not viewed as the direct words of Al but it is to be followed by every Muslim. Scholars have ruled on the relative reliability of each of sayings in the hadith.

    By the way there is never any excuse to hit your wife.

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    @ cofty not so, not all Muslims accept it. The major denominations all follow different hadiths. Some accept none. Accepting none is the proper choice, because the Quran, like the bible, condemns any attempt to replace or override or change it by some other teaching that springs up after it.

    And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided. [3:103]
    Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do. [6:159]
    And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah . And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.[3:78]

    As you can see from the above, the Quran strictly forbade Muslims from doing the very thing they did - splitting off into different groups with different beliefs and following other scriptures than the approved ones (bible and Quran). So again, regardless of what Muslims believe, the Quran says what it says, the majority just do not listen, but some do - and these do not accept the hadiths. 


    please read my other posts. A Christ is just a title. It means that person was Gods messenger or agent. This is why Jesus is called THE Christ, because he was a special Christ since he was also the Messiah. Moses was a Christ as well. The word Christ itself is not special, it's just a title. So every time the Quran calls Jesus a messenger it is calling him a Christ, because that is what a Christ was. Therefore it does not deny Jesus was the Christ, and in several places it actually calls him the messiah, one of which I quoted above.

    and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible slander against Mary, and said, 'We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.' (They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him- No! God raised him up to Himself. God is almighty and wise. 4:156-158

    The above speaks for itself. 

    In God's eyes Jesus is just like Adam: He created him from dust, said to him, 'be', and he was. 3:59

    This is also mentioned elsewhere.

    Let's establish what the Quran teaches about Jesus:

    1. He WAS a Christ (messenger)

    2. He was the messiah.

    3. He had no father but God directly and is equal to or just like Adam.

    4. His messianic status was denied by the people, he was crucified, but they did not kill him as they thought because God raised him to himself. 

    This is exactly what the bible says about him. 

  • Simon

    I have a difficult time taking seriously the opinions and arguments of anyone who believes certain crappy books have been written by a super being possessing someone with a pen.

    There is no difference between the book of mormon, the quran and the bible other than age and author. All written by men for men for control.

    You cannot separate the religions that use that control from the books they use to justify it. The only time you can objectively tear apart a book without the faith getting in the way is when the faith is long gone.

    To suggest that a book is inspired but the religion based on it isn't just makes me go "huh, what?!". You seem to be approaching your examination with strong preconceived ideas and that is clouding your ability to look at thing objectively. If you think a book is inspired by god then you will never allow yourself to question or critique any part of it as it needs to be.

    And your argument about the bible not condemning homosexuality / gay marriage is frankly crazy - because it mentions stoning and crucifixion are you claiming it encourages those as OK too? You are taking evidence that a book isn't inspired as justification for something else.

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    I'm not saying gay marriage is okay, nor that it's wrong. I'm saying the bible emphatically demonstrates free will, and freedom of choice are what humanity is all about. My point was that the bible protects your right to do anything, but indicates there may be consequences. The entire lesson Christ left was a new commandment, "that you love one another." 

    Thus, does it say homosexuality is wrong? Yes. Does that mean all gay people will die? Absolutely not. The judge in the bible is Jesus, he directed his followers, "stop judging that you may not be judged." It is not any human beings place to say how someone will be judged, rather it is our place to live in harmony and love and treat all how we would like to be treated. If someone is wrong, Jesus is the judge, and in the end when our deeds are weighed against us and our hearts read that is when our judgement happens - but not by any man or women on this planet. This is the bibles message, and direction - but this is not followed. Christians judge homosexuals, and are up in arms over this issue. The same is true for Catholics and contraception, judgement being passed by men and women who are fragrantly ignoring the real message, which is to never ever do the things they are doing. 

    And here's the difference between the Book of Mormon and the bible and Quran. The Quran seeks to confirm the bible, and nowhere contradicts it. It encourages reading of the bible and the Quran, and devotion to God. 

    The Book of Mormon does contradict the bible and the Quran. Thus it is impossible to be true. It teaches that God actually had intercourse with mary and dismisses the holy spirits involvement. This is untrue. The differences between the Book of Mormon and the other two are vast, and it excuses the Mormon book as nothing more than another hadith or Didache (an extra-canonical book that should not be considered inspired).

  • Simon

    The Quran contradicts the bible just by it's existence. Your arguments don't make coherent sense. This is fairly typical for a "believer" who can't see their own contradictions.

    You claim both are inspired and preclude being added to but the bible is then 'added to' by the Quran?

    You're of course claim that god can add to any at any time. Ok then, I declare the Hadith to be inspired, also the book of Mormon and Twilight. You know what religious types love about claims that something is inspired? It's unprovable, they can make the claim whatever the evidence. You cannot prove that the book of mormon isn't inspired however much you point out it's flaws.

    Can you see yet why it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Any claim of "inspired = unquestionable" is pure BS and doesn't lead to a rational discussion of any issues.

    All you are doing is preaching but pretending to yourself that you are being objective and learned.

    This is where Rezza Aslan falls at the final hurdle - he chooses what he already believes in before what the evidence is showing which makes him irrelevant as a commentator on the issues and useless as an opinion.

    We know what the opinion of "believers" are - always a variation on the same theme and crucially, unable to have a proper discussion because of pre-existing beliefs.

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    Also @ elaine

    i just noticed you quoted the same Quranic verse and evidently just misunderstood it. That verse is not saying that they didn't cricify Jesus. It's saying that they absolutely did- but that they did not kill him as they hoped. This it was saying that they were allowed to believe they had killed him (because they did crucify him) but God raised him up. 

    Ill say the above a different way for clarity.

    The Jewish leaders and people wanted Jesus dead. They wanted him in a tomb and out of their way. So they killed him... OR SO THEY THOUGHT, says the Quran, because God raised him up. See, it's notnsaying they didn't crucify him, it's saying they did in fact - and it was a very gruesom, convincing show making them think they won. But really, they are shown as fools, because God raised him from the grave to his right hand. 

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