The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom 303 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Simon
    If my wife mistreated me severely enough (which this is talking about) I would slap her

    Have to resist urge to ask "have you stopped beating your wife?" (

    Does the Quran provide any enlightenment as to what constitutes "severe enough mistreatment"? Or is that simply the "fails to obey" part?

    Seems like the perfect setup to justify one course of action one minute and then deniability the next. I don't think many fall for the deniability anymore.

    the Quran stands as a witness against Islam, and especially ISIS, in the same way the bible does against Christianity, and especially Catholicism

    One is currently killing and butchering people. One isn't. Yet you consider them the same. Strange.

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    Well. I think we'll all have to agree to disagree on this one.

    no opinion is wrong. And at this point that is what we are arguing. I know the Quran is not endorsing domestic abuse, but cofty, for example, feels even one slap is abuse even if a woman is mistreating and demeaning her mate severely. I disagree. But that doesn't mean I would ever beat my wife. 

    as far as the crusades comparison, I do understand where your coming from Simon. And it's a good point. I just don't agree. The pope was the closest thing to a world power at that time, every king was under his authority. Out of fear of excommunication they endorsed and supported the crusades. Muslims are not being forced to support ISIS. 

    Personally, I feel the entire world, and us in particular here, are extremely biased against religion. I do not feel Islam is reflective of the Quran. Therefore while I do not agree with Islam, I do not condemn the Quran just because it's linked with a group that does things I don't agree with. The Quran is not where they get these teachings or ideas from, and I think what is happening here is we are assuming since the Quran is islams book that their traditions must come from it. This is logical, but not the case.

    you guys might disagree, and that's fine. But that's how I feel about it. I think any further discussion might come across like I'm trying to push my views on you and I don't want to do that. Since I've already positioned my thoughts on the matter for considerstion, and they've been considered, I'll excuse myself. 

    I promise I've read and seriously considered all your posts as well. So I hope this does t leave anyone feeling I haven't somehow. I don't feel any disrespect toward you for disagreeing or anything. :)

  • Finkelstein

    The organization known as ISIS is really about self empowerment , to kill for material goods, to take control and ownership of lands that may have oil reserves and so on.

     They may kill in the name and glory of Allah and vindication of his name but the real core objective is self empowerment toward men who seek power and material wealth.

    Case in point, ISIS invaded many villages and killed almost all the inhabitants except for some young woman, not because they were armed and posing a physical threat but did so for the land and the possessions of those citizens.  

    They aren't fighting for the sake of Allah, they are fighting for the glorification of themselves and what material wealth they cultivate. 


  • Simon
    Muslims are not being forced to support ISIS. 

    Exactly - then why do so many voice support for similar ideologies?

    I do not feel Islam is reflective of the Quran.

    I don't even know what to say other than to ask if you are actually Rezza Aslan trolling us :)

    I think we've all made the points we're going to make.

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake
    I don't even know what to say other than to ask if you are actually Rezza Aslan trolling us 

    Haha man I wish i was! I'd have a promising career for a change, I've had  so many jobs... Omg. 

  • problemaddict 2
    problemaddict 2

    I may have missed something along the lines of my current comments point in my review of the previous apologies if it has already been touched on.

    Christians (and JW's), have completely divorced themselves from the Old Testament.  Somehow, even within Christian circles, stoning and rape of young girls is not something they would say is "ok". Yet the people of God in this book engaged in these practices, and it seemed to be sanctioned by God.

    But now.....Christians do not do that.  Something Jesus did or said or whatever, rendered those actions now as something of the past, not to be done anymore.

    Someone that doesn't understand Christian culture, could read the bible and think christians believe in all of those things, not knowing the nuances.  Is this possibly a mistake people are making with Islam and its primary holy book?

  • cofty

    There is no provision in Islam to do anything other than accept every word of the quran as the very words of god and authoritative for all time.

    Despite JDs dismissal of the Hadith it is also very influential in Muslim belief and practice. It is - to paraphrase Sam Harris - "the motherload of bad ideas"

    That is the problem.

  • LoveUniHateExams


    Bang on, cofty.

    Extremist Christians kill people with kindness. Extremist Muslims just kill people.  

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake


    To to tell you the truth, I must admit to complete ignorance of what the Hadith even says other than what was posted here. When I read those verses I had to research what the Hadith says and where it comes from. Not all Muslims except the Hadith. But I would have to concede that the Hadith is the originality of very bad things in Islam. I must state again my primary interest rests in defense of the Quran, not necessarily of Islam (though I do not condone condemnation of the whole group for the few). Those in Islam who accept the Hadith will likely mistreat women and do crazy things, and this I will not defend in the slightest. The Hadith does truly sound like the mother load of bad ideas, and I would submit that Islam as a whole should reform and unite in a way that does away with the Hadith for all and correctly teaches what the Quran actually says instead. A more modern translation that is easier to understand and takes into account cultural changes without sacrificing the Qurans teachings would be in order. 

  • Simon

    Saying you want to defend the Quran but not Islam seems nonsensical.

    If someone said they wanted to defend the Bible but not Christianity it would be equally strange.

    I just don't understand the concept - they are inextricably linked with each other. I can only see it working if it was the other way around, e.g. you could defend Christian ideals while not defending the bible.

    What next, defending the book of Mormon by not Mormonism?

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