by TerryWalstrom 303 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
also if this is meant as an indication that you feel islam should have its own reformation, I completely agree and said so on another page.
Yes, Islam needs to be reformed. I'm glad we can agree on that and you aren't accusing us of "racism" as some resort to.
We need to empower those who would reform it however we can. The first step is encouraging open criticism of the religion as otherwise nothing will change.
I'm just telling you the impression I get from what you posted.
This I understand. I really do, and my point is this:
you can respond to me and state what your impression is and I can respond and explain whether or not that was my intention. The Quran can only do this if someone positions it's words for it, and the same is true of the Bible. My goal, my posts, were aimed at this cause- to let the books speak in response and show what they say (I.e., someone said the Quran denies Christ is the messiah, but it says otherwise). If we are going to say that they say this or that and that what they say is vile, we should be willing to actually hear them out and see if what we've heard about them or read about them is actually true. That was all I was doing. If the conclusion you have reached personally remains unaffected that is completely your call, I only sought to ensure any false ideas were rectified- not to change your mind about it. As I stated earlier if I came across that way I do apologize, but I can assure you it's not my intention in the slightest. I'm not even a Muslim lol.
also I added an edition to my previous post, in case you missed it. I want to ensure you know I did read your whole post and that if your indication was meant to be this you feel islam should reform some how I agree with this. It really should.
We need to empower those who would reform it however we can. The first step is encouraging open criticism of the religion as otherwise nothing will change.
I agree with this as well. I feel the best way to do it is to use their own book against them. Which is what I indicated when saying the Quran is a witness against Muslims. So perhaps what we've been doing all along here is arguing same thing but with different ideas of how to do it? I dunno. I hope so.
I think the piece you are missing is that the bible and quran are intended to be weapons to give authority and control people. They will always be open to interpretation because they are vague and badly written.
That to me is proof that they are not divine in any way. I would expect a supreme being to be able to communicate clearly and unequivocally.
But that is also the solution - they can be re-written or at least re-interpreted into a less destructive and dangerous diatribe. I don't think you can use the book to prove what the right belief should be, you need to convince people to interpret the book that way.
You still seem to be convinced that there is a definitive "truth" in each book - it just isn't there.
but you will be doing civilisation a big favour.
Yes! I agree! Example, take the slap out. It's unnecessary. In the ancient culture it was acceptable, but today it is not and should not be there. The book itself indicates the slap is a poor choice anyway, since job is pictured as regretting his oath to lash his wife and rewarded with a way out of it. So let's take it out, let's get a modern translation that doesn't allow for people to reach all these radical conclusions.
I think the piece you are missing is that the bible and quran are intended to be weapons to give authority and control people. They will always be open to interpretation because they are vague and badly written.
This is true. There is a huge cultural chasm filled with old English and poor verbiage. Elsewhere on these forums I've voiced my opinion that religion should be outlawed. I honestly believe this. Outlaw all religion, and no man will be able to rise up and inspire the crazy people to follow him. We don't have to outlaw the books IMO, just the organizations.
Option 2, outlaw the books too. If God is really there, he won't let this happen amd we can jump start this "end times" deal. But if nothing happens? We can move on in unity and laugh at our naïveté.
Oh dear, you're not one of these "let's force Armageddon to happen" types are you?
Outlawing religion, while certainly appealing, plays into religions hands and persecution complex.
It's better to allow society to continue to evolve - just look at how far we've come in the last 50 year. Religion was very influential once and can now be openly ridiculed and questioned ... at least in the west.
We don't need to outlaw it but we need protections from it and to stop it encroaching into government as it often tries to do.
Separation of Church (any religion) and State (any country) is THE most important thing.
Don't do business with theocracy controlled countries. Help the poor souls forced to live in those places.
Oh dear, you're not one of these "let's force Armageddon to happen" types are you?
Outlawing religion, while certainly appealing, plays into religions hands and persecution complex.
Lol no, I thought of that on the fly. ive thought about how that complex would be set off. There would definitely be a huge fight. But I honestly think it would be worth it. I mean, really, religions are the reason for the worst acts in human history. They are vile organizations in my opinion. This is why I think (this is all my opinion at this point btw, obviously) it should be outlawed. Let the crazy ones who would rise up rise up, throw them in jail and try not to hurt them but if we could get rid of religion our world wide society would benefit GREATLY, I think. i mean, along with race (which makes no sense) isn't religion one of the biggest dividers in our society?
Separation of Church (any religion) and State (any country) is THE most important thing.
Don't do business with theocracy controlled countries. Help the poor souls forced to live in those places.
Also I agree with this.
I just have difficulty seeing how, as a society we will keep them separate when they've already been included to an extent- which I feel the gay rights issue demonstrates. Religion is the only reason it's an issue, and what's going to happen when it's law? In Illinoise, when gay marriage passed, the Catholic Church shut down all of the orphanages in the state that they had. (I do not know if they are still closed). This sort of behavior can only escalate in my opinion.
I mean, really, religions are the reason for the worst acts in human history. They are vile organizations in my opinion. This is why I think (this is all my opinion at this point btw, obviously) it should be outlawed.
Why not just outlaw the bad practices. Make it clear that people who deny others their basic human rights will not be tolerated, certainly not given tax breaks or respect. No need to outlaw any religions which would be impossible to draft legislation for.
I just have difficulty seeing how, as a society we will keep them separate when they've already been included to an extent- which I feel the gay rights issue demonstrates. Religion is the only reason it's an issue, and what's going to happen when it's law? In Illinoise, when gay marriage passed, the Catholic Church shut down all of the orphanages in the state that they had. (I do not know if they are still closed). This sort of behavior can only escalate in my opinion.
Uh? I don't see how those are connected. Religion has been standing in the way of people's rights. Society is changing and religion is taking a step back as it always does as understanding moves forward. Only Islam seems determined to stay fixed in the middle ages but it too will bend on break. It is an inevitability.
Do you have any evidence that the Catholic Church shutting down an orphanage is directly related to gay rights?
