by free2beme 100 Replies latest jw friends
I thought real proof was something Christian's feared.
I wonder where you got an idea like that?????
Isn't it lack of proof of what we were taught as JWs, that compelled us to leave the WTS as we found "real proof" of so many things"? "Real" Christians delight in filtering out the lies and discovering the "real" truth!
What you said just does not make sense! (sorry)
Annie
We don't have Plato's original notes, either. His existence is based on anecdotal evidence.
I start with the premise that God exists, and He created all we know on earth. I believe that nature speaks of His Glory, and that we can find evidence of His love and care in all cultures. I also believe that historical truth manages to survive fairly intact through the corruption of time. I believe there was a great flood or flood(s) that affected much of the known world (not the entire world as we know it today). I believe there was a Heracles, who did some amazing things. I believe there was a historical Jesus.
The big error, I think, is marking one belief system "pagan" and another "godly". Good is good, regardless of source. If a religion, or religious teacher, teaches a parent to injure their child, it is not of God.
At least, that is where my thinking is today.
My thoughts on this are a bit different , but here we go...
Having a `belief` system is exclusionary thinking. It closes folks off from the myriad of possibilities that are out there to explore. ie, Mary believes such-and-such, so she must not acknowledge that Sally`s belief in so-and-so could have any merit. If Mary acknowledges the possible merit of Sally`s beliefs, then Mary would have to question her own belief system.
To quote John Lennon,
I don`t believe in religion ... I don`t believe in Dylan .... I just believe ... in me.
tal
Everytime something comes out that disproves that something in the Bible might be wrong, it is debated away until the person who brought it up is tired of fighting the dogma of the other side. I must wonder if those questioning the Roman/Greek system experienced the same thing in the time of that religion. On the other hand, when ever something is in the news that might prove something in the Bible, it is made a huge deal of, even before the evidence can truly be examined. Then when it is disproven, you see that mentioned on page ten of the news paper.
If the Bible is true, then it all has to be true ...
So show me where the Garden of Eden is, where is Noah's Ark, where are remains of people that were gaints ... explain why stories in the Bible, including the Jesus legen, compare so closely to Roman/Greek myths? Why? and where is the proof. Without that, I have to see Christianity as a myth that society will one day grow out of. The Roman's grew out of their religion.
The thing is, I think that the story of Jesus can have power on the mind and the idea's mentioned by the legend can benefit people. I just see these same thoughts in other religions too. So a Christian, if they really want to explore their religion, should consider other religions and not go out with the closed minded thought, "that Jesus is the only one that taught these things about love." As for people being willing to die for faults belief systems, this is not something new and you would only need to study such bizzare thoughts as the cults of our times and the Nazi movement, to see that people will go to extreme to support beliefs they themselves created.
As for people being willing to die for faults belief systems, this is not something new and you would only need to study such bizzare thoughts as the cults of our times and the Nazi movement, to see that people will go to extreme to support beliefs they themselves created.
I have no doubt that people are willing to die for all sorts of different belief systems; you obviously missed my point. What you are asserting about Christianity is akin to saying that, yes, it's true - thousands of Germans gave their lives becaise of their belief in Hitler's Nazi teachings, but Hitler himself never existed, and many of those who gave their lives knew that he never existed. All of the cults of our time and the strange belief systems that people die for had founders - persons who set those beliefs and systems in motion. That people will die for their beliefs does not mean that those beliefs are correct, but it certainly testifies to the existence of the founder of those beliefs, especially so when people who were alive at the time that the founder was and would know if his existence was a fraud are willing to die for their belief in him.
Whatever you may believe about Jesus - liar, lunatic or Lord, as C.S. Lewis put it - his existence is as well attested as anyone's in ancient history. Anyone who argues against the fact of Jesus' existence clearly has an ulterior agenda, in my opinion.
I think there is some evidence that Jesus really lived. I do not say gods son or other bla bla. I think that lot of the legends in the case of Jesus have some truth in them. Distorted because of time difference between the events and when it wsa put in writing.
That somebody claimed to be a mesiah is not that strange. It still happens a lot of times in these days.
There is a lot of similarity in stories in the bible. More with the babylonian text then with the greek actually. The babylonain text are older then the bible and can be a common source for both.
It also seems that people create the same kind of stories independantly sometimes. People use to project human things on the gods. The big diffference in the bible is the use of a single almighty god. This is not so difficult to explain in a culture dominted with shepards of sheep.
Danny
When it comes to our Source and Sustenance (God), why believe anything? Is not our desire to know Truth/God so intimate and significant that mere assumptions and suppositions do not satisfy? Is not what we really seek the most Actual, the most Real?
Beliefs are simply mental constructs that when focused on divert attention away from the only reality we have, this conscious present-moment of life's expression. Beliefs create a perception of distance from what we seek; from what is actual and real. Perhaps the way is not via mental activity, but rather through being still.
Beliefs about God make what is Divine into a thing, or object separate and far away. When beliefs about God are absent, where is the distance then? When the mind is so quiescent that there is no "me", what is here? Life, Existence, Being is here. Perhaps we would actually come to know God if we would be more present and attentive to what is real and true already.
It may be that it is not so important whether Jesus existed or not, but rather do we? Am I the "me" who is believed to be? Am I truly some how separate and alienated from what is true and pure and Divine? Who am I, really? What is true? Rarely is attention shifted inward and questioning began here. Could it be that religious discussion goes round and round forever because we have never taken the first significant step and discovered the truth and actuality of what we are?
It has been said by the wise that we are the only book that needs reading. All we really seek, is here; already.
j
JT- I'm slowly coming around to your way of thinking... I just have BIG sense of humor that always seems to get in the way.
u/d (of the funny guys get all the chicks class)
Better yet, why only in one part of the world (a small part at that).
Paul, to King Agrippa, in Acts 26:
"What I am saying is true and reasonable. The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner" (vs. 25b-26, NIV).
It's the seed or yeast principle: start small and it will grow.
