Homosexuality What the Bible Really Says... (page 5)

sonnyboy

I must have missed your post, Nark.

I agree with much of what you said, but I don't care to appreciate anything that comes from such a hate-filled book.

upside/down

EF- nice essay...and I agree that the Bible and it's apologists are forever trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

And I have no problem with anyones "lifestyle"...as long as they don't infringe an/or hurt others. I find a "player" who sport-f*cks women detestable. Anyone who is loyal and true to his fellow human is good. Liars and cheaters of all flavors can FOAD.

Funny how Christ could "remind" and "not burden" his followers with all kinds of trite little tid bits of do goodyness... and yet fail to mention ANYTHING of real practical value in an area that definitely should be addressed if DEATH is the outcome. No mention of masturbation, oral sex, anal sex (homo or hetero), debasing music, tattoos...etc. by the JC himself.

He talked endlessly about the good qualities of man being paramount and the restraining of goodness as being EVIL. Remember the Pharisees? The ONLY group of people he ever condemned.

"Oh yeah, and by the way... no dirt roadin guys... it's bad."- JC (all he needed to say, if it's so damn important)

Does that mean if we go dirt roadin with the wifey we'z bad too?

It's all as you say "hooey"...

This is a deep seated cultural and religious "taboo"... it'll take another 10,000 years to beat it down. Look how long it's been going on already.

u/d (of the lesbian trapped in a mans body class)

Narkissos

Nobody is bound to twist the Scriptures as a fundamentalist. Feeling that one has to agree with the texts one cannot let them be what they are.

Although this is generally done in a conservative sense, (politically / "morally") liberal fundamentalists are not much better as far as intellectual honesty is concerned...

EvilForce

U/D...great post...my feelings exactly.
Sonny I will post on your questions later this afternoon. I owed Classist some answers.
Class...the 2 authors I mentioned are Daniel A. Helminiak, PhD. He entered the seminary, completed a B.A. in philosophy at St. Vincent College, Latrobe, PA, and an S.T.B. and S.T.L. in Catholic doctrine at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, Italy. During his Roman years he lived at the Scots College, spoke Italian on the streets, and passed oral exams in Latin. He served as assistant pastor; and then, making a first self-responsible choice that started the dominos falling, he began a life's pilgrimage that led him to resign from the priesthood and eventually join, leave, and rejoin the faculty at the State University of West Georgia. Along the way he completed a Ph.D. in systematic theology at Boston College and Andover Newton Theological School, an M.A. in personality psychology at Boston University, and a Ph.D. in educational psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. His theology dissertation dealt with the mystical Christian belief that "we are one in Christ," and his psychology dissertation, with the spiritual implications of the "crisis" of meaning and value in midlife.
In addition, he is certified as a Fellow of the American Association of Pastoral Counselors. He was assistant professor for systematic theology and spirituality at Oblate School of Theology, San Antonio, Texas, and has published The Same Jesus: A Contemporary Christology, Spiritual Development: An Interdisciplinary Study; The Human Core of Spirituality: Mind as Psyche and Spirit, and Religion and the Human Sciences: An Approach via Spirituality, as well as numerous popular and technical articles. His best-seller, What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality, was republished in an up-dated edition. At Boston College he was teaching assistant to the Jesuit philosopher, theologian, methodologist Bernard Lonergan, whom Time magazine called the Thomas Aquinas of the 20th Century and whose thought influences all of Daniel's thinking. His specialization is spirituality as a psychological phenomenon and its role of spirituality in a global society. He teaches and writes about spirituality, interdisciplinary method, human development, ethics, and sexuality.
The other is Robin Scroggs who is not gay and just passed away this year. He was Professor Emeritus of Biblical Theology at Union. An ordained Elder in The United Methodist Church who also studied rabbinics for a year as an Inter-Faith Fellow at Hebrew Union College, Robin Scroggs came to Union in 1986 after 17 years on the faculty at the Chicago Theological Seminary. His teaching and research concentrated on the theology of the New Testament, especially that of Paul, and the use of sociological and psychological models as aids in interpreting texts. Scroggs was the author of Paul for a New Day (1977), The New Testament and Homosexuality (1983), Christology in Paul and John (1988), and Text and Times (1993).

A native of North Carolina, Dr. Scroggs graduated in 1952 from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill with two degrees in music and then received the B.D. from the Divinity School of Duke University in 1955. Accomplished in piano, organ, and keyboard, Dr. Scroggs worked as a choir master and organist while earning his Ph.D. in New Testament at Princeton University. He conducted a choir during the ten years he taught at Dartmouth College and led a legendary Renaissance singing group during his years in Chicago.

EvilForce

Nark...your beliefs about translation aside if you think it's truly about male sex...then prohibition of male-male sex as you say occurs only in the "holiness code" of Leviticus and nowhere else. But other prohibitions in the "holiness code" of Lev. recur in other places in the Bible. Adultery is mentioned in Lev. 18:20 and 20:10 and again in Exodus 20:14, Numbers 5:11-31, and Duet. 5:18 and 22:22-27. Incest is mentioned in Lev. 18:6-18 and 20:11-12, 14, 17 and 19-21, and again in Deut. 22:30, 27:20 and 22-23. And bestiality is mentioned in Lev. 18:23 and 20:15-16 and then also in Exodus 22;18 and Duet. 27:21. These other offenses are forbidden in various contexts, but male-male sex (if we use your interpretation) is mentioned only in the "holiness code" of Lev. That being the case then you would need to conclude that like the other commands in the "holiness code" that were about uncleanness and holiness this would be included. The concern then was to keep Israel distinct from the Gentiles.

Sunspot

Thank you EF, for a truly informative presentation. I found it very interesting...it's a keeper!

"Bring them out so that we may have intercourse with them"

As you were explaining this passage I had a glimpse of deja-vu. When I was in 7th or 8th grade, our English teacher had ths word on the blackboard for our spelling list for the week. As the kids were copying this list down you could just hear what word they were copying, and there were more snorts and giggles all over the room.

I recall the teacher saying that we would be surprised at the "other" meaning of that word, and we would discuss the meanings o Friday. Needless to say this had quite an impact on my mind (and most likely others) and I never forgot this.

This made perfect sense as I read your post!

Very nicely done.

hugs,

Annie

Narkissos

your beliefs about translation aside if you think it's truly about male sex...then prohibition of male-male sex as you say occurs only in the "holiness code" of Leviticus and nowhere else. But other prohibitions in the "holiness code" of Lev. recur in other places in the Bible. Adultery is mentioned in Lev. 18:20 and 20:10 and again in Exodus 20:14, Numbers 5:11-31, and Duet. 5:18 and 22:22-27. Incest is mentioned in Lev. 18:6-18 and 20:11-12, 14, 17 and 19-21, and again in Deut. 22:30, 27:20 and 22-23. And bestiality is mentioned in Lev. 18:23 and 20:15-16 and then also in Exodus 22;18 and Duet. 27:21. These other offenses are forbidden in various contexts, but male-male sex (if we use your interpretation) is mentioned only in the "holiness code" of Lev. That being the case then you would need to conclude that like the other commands in the "holiness code" that were about uncleanness and holiness this would be included. The concern then was to keep Israel distinct from the Gentiles.

(1) Most prescriptions of the so-called "Holiness Code" (HC) are not repeated anywhere else.

(2) If you could demonstrate another meaning than "male" for zakar, would that make the prescriptions of Lev. 18:22 and 20:13 the equivalent of another (non-priestly) commandment? (Not that this would prove anything if it does, but if it doesn't the lack of repetition is hardly an argument.)

(3) Many repetitions are only apparent. Adultery is mentioned in the HC as a source of ritual uncleanness, whereas in the Decalog (Exodus 20; Deuteronomy 5) it is condemned as a civil crime, a trespass on someone else's property (as the last commandment elegantly shows, "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.") The same civil perspective is apparent in Deuteronomy 22:22ff ("the wife of another man") -- as is also shown by the fact that the same act with an unbetrothed virgin (v. 28f) calls only for a payment to the father and an undissoluble marriage (civil perspective). On the other hand the ordeal of Numbers 5 is described from a priestly perspective which is very similar to the HC => not an independent repetition.

loosie

The Hebrew word herewith translated as "have intercourse", or "know" is yada

Ok Well if no one else is gonna say it, I will.

Give new meaning the the phrase "yada yada yada"

AllAlongTheWatchtower

LOL @ loosie-I was thinking that too...kept envisioning Elaine from Seinfeld with the yada yada yada all the time.

Sunspot

Ok Well if no one else is gonna say it, I will.
Give new meaning the the phrase "yada yada yada"

LOL @ loosie-I was thinking that too...kept envisioning Elaine from Seinfeld with the yada yada yada all the time.

Okay---I admit that I wuz gonna say something like this too, but I didn't know how to give EF kudos and dig him in the ribs in the same thread!

It almost HAD to be said.......

Annie

Homosexuality What the Bible Really Says...

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