Homosexuality What the Bible Really Says...

by EvilForce 54 Replies latest social relationships

• 

  HappyDad

  EF,

  I respect you more than you know. You broke the binding chains of the WT and got an education and are living a great life. However, I agree with the monkey when she says................

  Evil , i don't need to read because it does not matter what you do in your private life to me . You are a great person with much to give and that is all you need to be in my book . I have never been gay or even thought of it so i don't really understand why anyone is ,or chooses to be with same sex nor do i care but you are a who you are and makes no difference except the person you are inside and Evil is a amazing great person.

  I don't want to be pointing the finger at you only, because there are others on this forum who are gay and from time to time bring up a topic for discussion (not to be confused with JW speak). But if you and the others are so comfortable with your lifestyle, why must the subject of homosexuality always be brought up? What is the reason? Just go back and take a look at your topic titles. It seems to me that in spite of your education and title of Dr., you are having major problems in dealing with your own identity. What are you searching for in life? Are you not happy just being yourself? Must you keep proving to others that you are an ok guy?

  You are an ok guy with very intelligent things to say and contribute to all of us. I just don't understand why this type of subject must constantly be brought up. There is a forum for gays that is very supportive and instructional.

  If I or other heterosexuals and Christians on this forum constantly brought up the subject of our lifestyle and tried to prove its legitimacy, we would be bombarded with venom and hate.

  Ok.......I have spoken my mind.

  HappyDad
• 

  DelTheFunkyHomosapien

  I'm only very new here but from what I've read so far if I had to label EF I would label him passionate.

  IMO he is comfortable within his self and comfortable with his lifestyle (Not trying to put words in your mouth EF just an opinion). Good on him for trying to break down the bigotry and taboo of homosexuality. I think we all need to get over ourselves and stop judging people on stereotypical perceptions of how we have been taught minorities are.

  Just curious HappyDad would you be saying the same thing if someone was passionate about say; child abuse, drugs, rape, race, or whether you are a coke or pepsi person.

  Every body has there agendas. EF's is obvious. I don't take his posts to be self doubt more breaking down barriers.
• 

  EvilForce

  Thanks Del...your points are dead on.
  
  Happy....it's a tough balancing act. Since I've been posting on JWD.com I've had 3 gay guys PM me or email me saying they appreciate my candor and if it wasn't for my posts they probably wouldn't have started posting themselves. I honestly don't give two shites about the bible. I think it's a bunch of hooey. But as you may have read from my posts....I have had to do some research very recently because my parents decided to finally corner me on the whole "gay thing". Since they are active JW's I have to battle them on their turf so to speak. They won't listen to "doctors" or "mental professionals" so I have to use the tool they will listen to. Much as other gay posters have been made to feel bad for years because of the bible.
  
  Since I haven't had to refute the bible nor cared to....I haven't done much research into it. Only in the past few months have I really started looking into it. Just like reading up about CofC and the Dub's. When I left I was like "oh well, not my thing". But I didn't know how many lies the whole foundation was built on. I have told folks here on the board more about my personal life than most of my work associates know. I mean for crying out loud you know I'm married, have an open relationship, how many guys both Dub's and non-Dub's I've slept with, and what I went thru growing up. I dare say I've been about as open as one can be on a public board. And I have taken a fair number of hits for it. Snide comments and nasty PM's along the way. Well so be it.
  
  As another poster brought up...why do so many threads turn into "gay threads". It's because so many people here have been damaged by the Dub's and don't realize the true intent of Jesus. Dub's are so very judgemental. My goal with this thread is to challenge that thought process just a little bit. Open the door to their brain to show them what the bible really says. When I left the Dub's I challenged everything. I found "my" way. I hope that others can too.
  
  But what can seem to you like "shoving it down your throat" is what straight culture does to gay culture EVERY day. It'll be a glorious day when no one notices two men kissing, two women kissing, or man and woman kissing as any different or react differently than any other group. We will simply look at it as two people in love. I promise you..... I'm not about to go back to the KH for salvation....LOL.
  
  EvilForce gets off soapbox and truly IS going to bed now. Make sense Happy???
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  I've heard and read other interpretations of the Bible's stand on homosexuality. I agree that it does not make sense that Lot would send his virgin daughters out to distract hordes of horny gay men. I mean how much sense does that make?

  It's very liberating to break free from such narrow thinking on human romantic love and sexuality.

  This is how I think god/goddess feels about hetero, homo or bisexuality:

  Artist	Burt Bacharach
  Album	Reach Out
  Song	What The World Needs Now Is Love

  What the world needs now is love, sweet love It's the only thing that there's just too little of What the world needs now is love, sweet love, No not just for some but for everyone. Lord, we don't need another mountain, There are mountains and hillsides enough to climb There are oceans and rivers enough to cross, Enough to last till the end of time. What the world needs now is love, sweet love It's the only thing that there's just too little of What the world needs now is love, sweet love, No, not just for some but for everyone. Lord, we don't need another meadow There are cornfields and wheat fields enough to grow There are sunbeams and moonbeams enough to shine Oh listen, lord, if you want to know. What the world needs now is love, sweet love It's the only thing that there's just too little of What the world needs now is love, sweet love, No, not just for some but for everyone. No, not just for some, oh, but just for everyone
• 

  Narkissos

  One very important thing to keep in mind is that the apparent chronological order of Bible texts is only... apparent. The clearest anti-homosexual prescriptions in the Torah most probably did not exist when the Saul, David & Jonathan story, for instance, was written. This story imo clearly reflects the place of homosexuality in the royal aristocracy -- which by the way was pretty different from its modern definitions in a democratic society (homosexuality as "identity," "community" etc.). I agree that the "sin" of the Sodom & Gomorrah story (and its less noticed parallel in the Gibeah story of Judges 19) is not homosexuality per se, but collective rape as a violation of the rules of hospitality. In Genesis the sacred status of the "stranger" is enhanced by the fact that the strangers are actually angels, which is not the case in the Judges version. However, trying to prove too much leads nowhere. The sexual connotation of yada` is obvious from the context of Genesis and Judges, just as zakar cannot mean anything but "male" in the context of Leviticus. Shifting to etymology is no help. To put it briefly: I'd say that trying to enrol the Bible as a whole into a defense of gay rights is desperate -- some Bible texts are clearly homophobic, just as some Bible texts are mysoginist, racist or antisemitic. Putting the different texts into perspective and appreciating their nuances is much more liberating in the long run.
• 

  scotsman

  To put it briefly: I'd say that trying to enrol the Bible as a whole into a defense of gay rights is desperate -- some Bible texts are clearly homophobic, just as some Bible texts are mysoginist, racist or ;antisemitic. Putting the different texts into perspective and appreciating their nuances is much more liberating in the long run.

  Very true, Narkissos.

  I have had to do some research very recently because my parents decided to finally corner me on the whole "gay thing". Since they are active JW's I have to battle them on their turf so to speak. They won't listen to "doctors" or "mental professionals" so I have to use the tool they will listen to.

  EF, what was the outcome with your parents?
• 

  EvilForce

  Good points Nark...
  Most people have no idea about the male temple prostitutes or pedastry in Roman culture. Both going on during the bible writing times. My point is maybe it isn't "so black and white" as most say. In that case we should fall back on Jesus main command to love one another.
  
  Scot...it's an on-going issue w/ my parents. Slowly prying open the steal jaws grasp of the WTBS. My dad has been shocked most of all I think. When he quotes a scripture and I then can talk to him for over an hour on that one scripture on what other bible scholars have said on it. He realizes he only has the WTBS "safe answer" to fall back on. No grey area...no room for movement.
• 

  The Chuckler

  Good Luck to you EF. Nice article.
  
  I find it beyond my comprehension that an issue, homosexuality, which is experienced by what, 5-10% of the adult population, is not dealt with directly by the Bible. How can any Christian organization fully advise and tend it's flock when 5%-10% of them have had their sexuality totally ignored, or worse still, been victimised and persecuted for it.
  
  If we are all made in Gods image, does that mean that 5-10% of hs psyche has homosexual tendencies? (Apologists - no answer necessary.)
  
  S
• 

  misguided

  Thank you, EF. I often thought about 2 Samuel 1:26, and what that really meant. I recall asking about Lot's giving his Virgin daughters to the men, and the answer I was given was that the homosexual act was viewed so badly by Jehovah, that Lot would rather have his virgin daughters given to the men. I never could quite grasp the logic in that. Your explanation makes much more sense to me.

  Thank you.

  Rose

  If god is against homosexuality, why are my kids' 2 male guinea pigs frequently looking like they're trying to do it? It's obviously a "natural" thing.
• 

  Balsam

  Evilforce,

  Thanks for educating us. I clung to what I thought the bible said about homosexuality, until I read some of the books you mentioned. I was grateful to finally have a balanced and more accurate view point. One I share with other heterosexual people I know who bring it up trying to condemn homosexuality. I think it is time for attitudes to change on many subjects. I printed up your research and will be saving it for handy reference. The bible has been used too many times to abuse and mistreat people, its time to stop.

  I hope more witnesses trying to surpress their gay desires will find peace and knowledge so they can be set free from organized religions perception of them. The Unitarian Universalist wecome gays, and I've had the pleasure of meeting some wonderful couples that have become friends.

  Balsam