EVERYTHING YOU ALWAYS WANTED TO KNOW

by Terry 78 Replies latest jw friends

  • bebu
    bebu

    Q: Why do people who have been married a long time often end up looking so much like each other? Not simply older, but really a lot like each other? I've noticed this on occasion.

    Terry, I also think your wife is withdrawing from you because of depression. Withdrawal is often a sign of trying to protect one's ego from (further) (perceived?) damage. It will be helpful to have a neutral party (eg. a counselor) help her to determine why she is depressed, because often the biggest problem is that the woman feels she cannot communicate with her husband so someone else talking with her could give better beginning help, at least.

    As I'm sure you must know, for many women sex has to have an authentic relationship behind it, or they do not want to engage in it very much... they often can't separate very easily their deep relationship emotions from sexual appetite as men can. The hormones don't run so high in a depressed state, so she can really outlast you.

    bebu

  • Rod P
    Rod P

    Terry,

    18 years is a very long time. How long have you and her been living in that kind of relationship? Has it always been that way, or when did you first start noticing she was like that? She must have been attracted to you at the start, or why did she want to marry you in the first place? Whatever it was that she saw in you, what was it that made her change?

    Sometimes this can happen after a woman has had kids. Did you notice any change in her after that?

    I would be asking myself the question "Why is my wife being so busy being busy with other things all the time?" It sounds to me like she has put her "headspace" into her own little world of self-interest as a way to "keep herself going, while feeling stuck in this marriage". I say this because your situation sounds painfully like mine was when married to my JW wife. Then I converted to Mormonism, and boy did she change. She said to me "I cannot love someone who doesn't love Jehovah!" And wow, she meant it. We stayed married, and we lived together as husband and wife, but the relationship was farcical. For a time we stayed together "for the sake of the kids". Neither one of us wanted to admit a failed marriage. We had a sexual relationship (obviously with 3 daughters), but I can tell you also that living in a divided home for 7 out of the 9 years the marriage lasted, there was an awful lot of "the wifely duty" thing. When she was pregnant with our first daughter, we were both "in the truth", and we were very happy together, in every way. After, when I "changed" by becoming Mormon, she told me "I would never have had this baby had I known you were going to do this to me. You were the one who changed, Rod, not me!" And she was right about that part. However, she could not use that excuse when we had our second daughter, because she conceived while I was Mormon. Then, for our third daughter, I was also Mormon, which you might say put the last nail in the coffin of her excuse "I wouldn't have had that child had I known you were going to change." But I never threw this argument in her face, because I still loved her, and kept hoping she could "love me" in spite of our religious differences.

    Let me tell you what I think happened. At first, we were mutually madly in love, especially for the first two years of the marriage. It was obvious to everyone. If ever there was a marriage "made in heaven", this was it. Then I became Mormon, and that was like pouring a bucket of ice water on the relationship. After she got over the initial shock, and then "nursed her wounds" for the next 6 months, she settled down into the marriage, with a strong sense of duty and motherhood. But she had everything neatly compartmentalized in her head. On the religion thing, "We can't talk about it. So I will just go to my JW meetings, while Rod goes to his Mormon Church." (I would drive her to the Kingdom Hall, and let her take the kids with her. After all, it was the least I could do, since I was the one who changed.) In the Social compartment, her circle of friends became (or were) exclusively the Witnesses from the Kingdom Hall, and her mother, father and 5 brothers. That was her social life, while ours was next to none. After all, I couldn't talk or associate with any JW's and my Mormon and non-Mormon friends were, in her mind, "worldly associates", which JW's naturally avoid. In the financial compartment, she just let her husband "take care of that", since he is a good provider, and he is the head of the household. We hardly ever discussed money, but I think she thought money was just one of those "worldly necessities" and we are not going to need money in the New World, which is just around the corner.(Just wait until 1975! You'll see.) In this area I used to buy her things. Lots of things. Anything and everything I thought she wanted or would love to have. Perhaps I thought she would still "be in love with me" if I kept her happy on the material front. She just willingly accepted these things gracefully, always saying "Thank you!" out of appreciation, but still, it all fell flat in the love department. You cannot "buy" love! Kind of like getting a dozen beautiful roses from a man you don't love or want a relationship with. Then there was the "Kids Department". "Well now, I will just be a good and loving wife and mother, have Bible studies with the kids and bring them up loving Jehovah, while I know dad is a pretty good father who loves our kids and provides well for us all. Other than that, I will accept my lot in life" (I would hear her singing Kingdom songs to herself many-a-time. Her inner world of "spirituality" and relationship with Jehovah would sustain her.) She was a farm girl, and was an exceptional cook, and she just loved to cook and sew and iron, and do the housekeeping. That compartment was also fulfilling for her, and she dived into that. So now what do we have left? Oh yes, the marriage bed. And there we were at nighttime, laying beside one another, and I would say to her "I love you, sweetheart!" Her response was, without exception "Yes, I know!" Talk about killing a feeling. "Yes, I know." And yet, if I wanted to make love with her, she would accommodate, but I don't recall ever feeling it was mutual. I could get that kind of love on a street corner, if you know what I mean. She regarded this as "fulfilling her marriage vows, as Jehovah would want her to do."

    Needless to say, the marriage didn't last, kids notwithstanding. The catalyst for the separation was on the religious front, but deep down, something had died a long time ago. I had to face the awful truth, that my wife simply "had fallen out of love with me!" And there was no way to get it back, because she was "in the Truth" and I was not. The damage had been done.

    I was in love with my wife the whole time, even after we divorced. I never quite got over her, and it's been 31 years since the divorce.

    Now Terry, the reason I was boring you with my gory details, was because I am leading up to the question of "Has your wife fallen out of love with you, but will stay married and together with you out of a sense of duty, and for the sake of the kids? Or some combination of that?" What exactly is it that is holding the marriage together? She knows you are probably a good father to your children, and children need a father, and I'm sure she is acutely aware of that, so that that is a big reason to keep a marriage together, yet having nothing to do with the personal relationship between you and her. Also, has the marriage become one of "convenience"? In other words, does she hang out with you because there is a nice roof over her head, you are a bread winner, so she does not have to worry about the material things of life being "taken care of", while she gets on with the business of creating this whole other "inner world" she seems to be absorbed in all the time. Has she compartmentalized herself, and knows exactly how to fit everything into its place, while she creates her own "reality". And meanwhile, perhaps you are not in her equation. You're just a part of the puzzle she has to deal with at some level of "practicality"....?????

    Now, I know from other posts from you that you are just not into "religion". In fact, I would say you are pretty skeptical about anything "spiritual", and frankly, I understand where you are coming from, and I cannot even fault you for your very lucid rationale about why you believe the way you do. (I don't think you and I are all that much different, even though we have come to different conclusions.) But I have to ask the question, are there any differences of philosophy or belief between you and your wife that may be dividing you. Is any of this a possible turn-off for her? What is her "reality modality" as opposed to yours? And are you still the man she married, the man you used to be, or have you morphed into something else over the years? This is a question for soul-searching; but do not do it in such a way that it turns into one of those "guilt trips" where you start beating up on yourself. The same question(s) could be asked of her.

    If your wife is "burying herself" into another world because she is depressed, as other posters here have suggested, then you need to get to the bottom of the cause for such depression, so that things can be dealt with. What kind of issues is she carrying around deep inside of her? And the longer she remains in this state, the deeper it will settle in, and the harder it becomes to deal with it. We are all creatures of habit! It is not good to let depression become the dominant "habit".

    Did she change after she had the kids? Does she feel trapped because this may be some kind of burden she must carry around with her until they are grown up and able to take care of themselves? Some women discover things about themselves, such as they just do not want to be a mother with kids and all that burden that ties them down. They end up feeling that motherhood is not all it's cracked up to be. I have seen many marriages disintegrate as soon as the kids grow up and move away. (And you know, even the kids are glad to get away from it all, since they see what is going on between the parents all those years too.)

    Some women experience post partum depression, and then never snap out of it. Could her problem be chemical or homonal?

    The next question on our list here is the one Avishi asked: Is your wife just plain lazy and selfish, and as long as you are the willing slave, she is also quite willing to indulge you, and let you assume most of the duties. After all, that just frees her up to be able to do whatever else she wants to do.

    Is your wife into a career path, and has aspirations to make something of herself in the workplace? There are marital relationships out there where the roles are reverse, and the husband loves to stay home and cook and assume all of the domestic duties, while the wife pursues her career and just loves it. Some of these relationships can be quite successful for both parties, provided it is a mutual decision. If it isn't, then it can become hell for one of the partners, or both.

    And finally, I have to ask the question, when your wife spends all that time "at the library", are you certain that is where she is at and what she is doing? I am not trying to create suspicion or doubt here. But statistics do confirm that there are a large number of cases where extra-marital affairs enter in. If a woman is feeling unfulfilled at home (and a man, for that matter) they will often seek fulfillment elsewhere. They are giving all their best to someone else, and are too tired and can't be bothered with the other relationship at home. It accentuates the "burden" called the marriage. You know the situation better than anyone else, but at the same time, the marriage partner is often the last one to know or find out.

    The purpose of all of these questions and exploration of the possibilities is to try and get to the bottom of what is causing the breakdown or humdrum in the marital relationship. Once you can correctly identify the cause, then you can begin to work on possible solutions to the crisis or the dilemma. To that end, I am trying to be helpful here, for what it's worth.

  • talesin
    talesin

    Rod - wow

    SimpleSally

    I feel men under my supervision think I am supposed to either act like their wife, secretary or underling......... why am I to have this "polite" behavior but not the men????????????

    That is one of my burning questions, too! At the office, people would ask why I wasn't smiling and sucking up all the time, was I in a bad mood? Sheesh! No, maybe I was concentrating on my work? The men can be 'all business', that is expected. But the women, we are supposed to be fawning, smiley Barbies.

    I actually got a demerit on my performance review once because the guys were all standing at my desk laughing and joking, and I told them to take their play elsewhere so I could get my work done. The problem was "I didn't show them enough respect, and should have been nicer." They weren't showing me respect when I was horrendously busy, and they knew it. So I called them on it. Give ... me ... a ... break!

    tal

  • bem
    bem

    Bebu, one of the reasons I have heard that people start to look alike after being married or together for years is because they go through the same emotions, traumas, good and bad times together. therefore using the same facial expressions etc.

    Rod, The lightening can come from the ground up. So according to Michael Goodrich the weather man for a Tucson, Az. tv channel says.

    Had the sex problem Terry for years. combo of stress, tired, kids. stay at home mom. plus I plain old didn't like my husband. Don't have the problem anymore. or the husband.

  • Terry
    Terry
    Terry, I also think your wife is withdrawing from you because of depression. Withdrawal is often a sign of trying to protect one's ego from (further) (perceived?) damage. It will be helpful to have a neutral party (eg. a counselor) help her to determine why she is depressed, because often the biggest problem is that the woman feels she cannot communicate with her husband so someone else talking with her could give better beginning help, at least.

    We go on and off year after year.

    You see, one person can't do ALL the changing and fitting in and adapting without losing who/what they are. She is unwilling to make changes.

    T.

  • Terry
    Terry
    Terry,

    18 years is a very long time. How long have you and her been living in that kind of relationship? Has it always been that way, or when did you first start noticing she was like that? She must have been attracted to you at the start, or why did she want to marry you in the first place? Whatever it was that she saw in you, what was it that made her change?

    Sometimes this can happen after a woman has had kids. Did you notice any change in her after that?

    I would be asking myself the question "Why is my wife being so busy being busy with other things all the time?" It sounds to me like she has put her "headspace" into her own little world of self-interest as a way to "keep herself going, while feeling stuck in this marriage".

    I had my own Art Gallery when we married and she had her own photography business. When both folded (because of a shared business partner) there was a blow to the "illusion" of what the marriage would revolve around.

    We are not rich. That is at the heart of it.

    T.

    My wife came from a family that had money. She was reared to be artistic. They called her the "baby genius" and put her in dancing lessons, singing lessons, she was in theatre, made a solo trip to New York at 14, was sent to the best colleges, etc.

    Her expectations from life were that she'd be the center of the universe, she'd be famous and she'd make a big splash. Never happened. Her emotional development never rivalled her talent. She couldn't make friends (being self-centered) and easily made enemies. She dropped out of one project after another. She could never quite get to the end of anything.

    Her personal hero was her grandmother who owned her own gallery (actually grandma's rich husband owned it) and travelled the world. My wife wanted that kind of life.

  • Rod P
    Rod P

    Terry,

    Well then, if the glue that held your marriage together was the "business(es)" (you with the Art Studio, and her with her Photography), albeit with another business partner involved, and then this ended in failure, I can see how this could adversely affect the marriage. Is it possible that the marriage relationship was a kind of extension to the business relationship, so that as goes one, so goes the other? Did she see you more as a business partner than a husband. Was this the basis for the attraction in the first place? Was the marriage a means to the end (i.e. of financial success)?

    I know a lot about business failures and business partners myself, because I've been thru a couple in my time. It's a real kick in the teeth, it takes a lot out of you, it saps you of your strength and energy and creativity and vision. It robs you of your self-esteem, and you become embarrassed amongst your peer group, your friends, your relatives, and your banker. It leaves you feeling helpless and hopeless, and you become totally disillusioned with life and love, and the human race. And as the money problems grow and compound like interest, so does the stress and strain test the marriage to its limit. Money problems and expectations can destroy a marriage. It can destroy faith, trust and respect for ones mate.

    But, you know, "Hope springs eternal." And, like the Phoenix, we can rise from the ashes, start again, and rebuild. Wealth can be rebuilt, and lives restored. But you have to start, you have to try again. You have to try and ignite that "spark" again. Get that fire back in your belly. Give yourselves a shot of determination, and talk up a little bit of enthusiasm. Lift up those shoulders, hold that head up high, and hold out that chin, and say "I'm gonna do this!" Enthusiasm is contagious. Show that wife of yours some spunk, and a spark in your eye, and get those feet movin' Do something. "Just do it." Maybe you can light a fire under your wife, and get her batteries recharged while your at it. Start with what you know best and love most. Maybe you can be a catalyst for your wife, and help her get her up and running. I don't know the circumstances, Terry, but if business is the problem here, then business can be the solution. But it ain't going to happen on its own. And if having sufficient working capital is the barrier to getting things going, there are solutions for that too!.........Anyway, enough said about that, so I'll get off my soap box, and straighten my suit and tie. Whew, I kinda got carried away there, gettin' enthusastic and all.

    Being an accountant, I have had, and continue to have a number of wealthy business clients. Some I have been with for 15 and 20 years, and watched their children grow up. I know about the lifestyles of the rich, and this environment the kids are raised in. Rich kids are often "spoiled rotten" and indulged with their every wish and whim. (I have also seen some treated just the opposite because the rich parents did not want their kids to become spoiled brats.) The indulged ones are put into the best schools and clubs and activities that money can buy, and are put on pedestals, being the centre of attention. Children from this type of background, more often than not, grow up with the expectation that the world revolves around them, they are the centre of the universe, and they will have temper tantrums if they do not get their own way. "I'm the star here, not you." "I'll fix you, you're fired."

    Money is the instrument of power and control. Those who are rich know all about that. Without wealth, these people become helpless. Unless they are self-made, entrepreneurial millionaires, who had to fight for everything they've got, the wealthy who have become that by way of inheritance (i.e. born with a silver spoon in their mouth), and then lose it, become totally immobilized. Not always, but more often than not. The wealthy can afford to hire those with the necessary expertise and qualifications and abilities to accomplish virtually anything they want. Lose your wealth, and suddenly you are forced to do everything yourself, a situation they may never have had to face a day in their lives.

    Now, I take it your wife has developed a certain kind of self-sufficiency in that she obviously has knowledge, expertise and ability in the field of photography. Is she still interested in photography? Does she still have the necessary tools of the trade, or is that a "barrier to entry" at the present time? Does she have any sort of collection or portfolio of the photography works she produced in the past? If so, can she use that as leverage? Does she have any particular subject matter or themes with which she has a particular interest at the present time? Is this an area you and her can share and exchange ideas around? (Also, maybe this is one way where you could convey the message to her that you are interested in her and what she in interested in. That could be a good way to rekindle things. It is hard not to like/love someone who likes/loves what you do.)

    And what about you, Terry. If you like the Art business, and art studios, can you resurrect that in any way. And if you had an art studio, is there a way you could dedicate a space or a wall to display your wife's photographs. What if your wife were to consign some of her photography to another gallery that is already in business. That way, she doesn't incur overhhead expenses, while the studio doesn't have to purchase her inventory in advance. What about the internet, and getting your own web-site up and running, and then displaying her (and your) works of photography (and art) for sale. Obviously you would have to be set up as a merchant with major credit card companies in order to make sales on the internet.

    I'm not trying to get my nose into your business, and I'm certainly not telling you or your wife what to do, and no, I do not have all the answers. Just trying to get some creative juices flowing here, and get some kind of spark ignited, get something going to overcome the inertia. If ya wanna get the marriage to work, ya gotta do somethin' to make it happen. It ain't gonna happen all by itself. And if you still love your wife, and long for her to feel the same way, then I'm tellin' ya man, you gotta be the leader in this thing; the instigator; the catalyst.

    What do you think would happen if you (and your wife) developed a business that turned into a money making venture, a "cash cow". Do you think she would feel differently towards you and the marriage then? Think about that one.

    Rod P.

  • Es
    Es

    Im obviously not one of those woman i cant go two days without it. But I think for the majority of woman it depends on there partner. When married to my ex husband I could go months without it but with my fiance now its all the time es

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Terry, go on strike!

    carmel

  • Terry
    Terry

    Terry, go on strike!

    carmel

    Ohhhhhhh. I've tried negativity. Withdrawal and detachment seem to pool up into an enviornment conducive to drowning.

    When two people live together and one decides to go into avoidance and solitary singularity; the game becomes Freeze-out.

    I can't change anybody but myself. The focus then becomes: what to change into?

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