New member, question thats been asked many times, but how do you feel ?

by Greyeyes 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sirona


    Jgnat provided some proofs to start, (thanksJgnat I only just logged on again)

    Then, who is the most oppressed religious group? I remember being at Bethel, and remembering the constant reports at morning worship about the brothers in Greece, Different African countries, etc that were under constant percecution. So that was false? Show me proof.

    Here are some more

    1998 IDOP evaluation of persecution of Christians:
    The IDOP estimates that about 200 million Christians around the world face actual persecution, and another 350 million face discrimination and restrictions. Their web site cites a number of countries as particular offenders:
    bulletChina: The two state-sanctioned churches (Catholic Patriotic Assoc., Protestant Three-Self Patriotic Movement) are tightly controlled by the Religious Affairs Bureau of the Chinese government. Members of unregistered house churches are being prosecuted. Hundreds of Chinese Christians are in "re-education through labor" camps.
    bulletEgypt: Attacks by Muslim fundamentalists against Coptic Christian are common and not being effectively countered by the government. The government restricts expansion and even repair of Christian facilities by withholding building permits.
    bulletIran: To convert from Islam to another faith is a criminal offense in this country. Christians are routinely threatened, arrested, imprisoned and tortured because of their faith.
    bulletNigeria: This is a religiously divided country; Christians are mainly located in the south; the north is largely Muslim. The government appears to be conducting a campaign to eradicate all evidence of Christianity in the northern part of the country. Church burning is common.
    bulletNorth Korea: The entire country is suffering from a devastating famine; starvation and near starvation is common. Christians are persecuted and imprisoned.
    bulletPakistan: Christians have been the target of trumped up charges of blasphemy. They are often the target of mobs and fundamentalist Muslims. A high court judge who had the courage to acquit Christians in a blasphemy case was assassinated.
    bulletSaudi Arabia: All Christian worship is forbidden in the country - even within the U.S. embassy. Saudi Muslim citizens who convert to Christianity are subject to the death penalty.
    bulletSudan: This country probably has the worse human rights record in the world. It is another religiously divided country, with many Muslims in the north and many Christians in the south. Horrendous civil rights violations are conducted against the Christians. Crucifixion and slavery have been reported from reliable sources.
    bulletVietnam: The government requires all religious groups to register. But since the civil war ended in the mid 1970's, no Protestant group has been granted official recognition. The government rigidly controls the Catholic church by reductions in the numbers of seminary entrants, restricting the number of ordinations, etc.


    The Baha'i are possibly the most persecuted religious group in the world
    And why, may I ask, are you restricting the "persecuted" groups to Christian groups? What about Jews? What about other religious groups who have been persecuted? .
    Please show me another Christian group, that as a whole, dont fight in wars or assist in any way.

    So we're still on Christian groups? and

    Not to get bombarded with all thereasons people feel that JW's are the Anti-Christ.

    MMM very interesting. Did anyone say that?

    I've in my travels, and searches,still never found a group of people that were more devoted to bible standards (even if they are flawed) but still normal people as I have with the JWs.

    With respect, if you think that JWs are "normal people" then you're still under the influence of their indoctrination. I have met lots of people more well versed in the bible and who have more faith and more respect than JWs. Despite the JW drivel, not all other Christians are led by "satan".

    I personally dont feel that they are a Cult. A cult to me are folks that want to off themselves to catch a comet to another planet. Or Drink Kool-aid for a mass suicide. Or the leader of the group marrying every female 12 and up in the bunch. To me JW's are just devout. I dont consider the Amish a cult. They Isolate themselves fromt he world. Refuse technology to a large degree. But no one talks abotu them being a cult. So explain to me why JW's are? Because they hold strick to the Bible? ANd let face facts. Even if they did change some things around. The basics hold true. Love you neighbor, dont get drunk, dont have sex outside of marrige, dont lie, dont cheat, dont steal, dont gamble, dont kill, dont partake of blood. Whats so hard about that? How is sticking to those principles make you a cult? Just becuase other Christian based faiths are lax about it? Again, not trying to debate, just want to know why so many of you hate them so much.....

    Some EXJWs don't think they're a cult. I do.

    From my comments in RED
    Every cult can be defined as a group having all of the following five characteristics:


    It uses psychological coercion to recruit, indoctrinate and retain its members JWs do this with their methods of study with new recruits, then by using fear to retain members (fear of armageddon, fear of shunning by friends and family)


    It forms an elitist totalitarian society. (Society...interesting word. They have their own community who are elitist)


    Its founder leader is self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic, not accountable and has charisma. MMM Charles Taze Russell. Not accountable because OH YES there is new light! Now the Governing body have taken his place as the man-made ruler of the JWs "society"


    It believes 'the end justifies the means' in order to solicit funds / recruit people. Dragging children out knocking on doors, having no career so you can knock on doors more, having less education so you can knock on doors more, change your doctrines to the detriment of the JW rank and file so that you can recruit better.... etc.


    Its wealth does not benefit its members or society. Millions tied up in property, Gov body members private flights, blah blah blah

    Check out the rest of that cult evaluation site, it might just open your eyes.

    I just spent 10 minutes and found all that!


  • EvilForce

    Sirona,,,,great post I was working on a similar response....thanks!

    Greyeyes, no one has the answers you seek except for you! You seem to want to believe the JW's just without all the responsibility. You seem unhappy but unmotivated to do anything about it. Jesus said, "Take my yoke it is light". Does it feel light in the WTBS?

    If you seek God you questions will be answered. But it is on your shoulders to do something about it. Make a commitment to study 8 hours a week to seeking your answers. Maybe ever other Sunday plan an outing to a new church, temple, synagoge. Read 1 book a month on the subject. Something along these lines. Otherwise in 6 months you will still be in the same old spot, unmoved, unmotivated, unchanged, 1/2 year older, and still miserable with your life.

  • EvilForce


    Go to and take the Belief-O-Meter test. It will take you 20 to 25 minutes to take. It asks 20 questions about deities and such and then you have to assign an importance to them. It will list the top 26 or 27 religions and the percentage on how your own personal beliefs stack up against theirs.

    Also, Buhddists are non violent groups that don't go to war. In fact most Buhddists won't eat meat because they feel that is murdering animals which is wrong in their belief structure.

  • FreeWilly

    Hey G,

    I don't like the word cult either. It's basically a religious insult. JW's are, by and large regular people who try to do what is right. There are a few that are not nice - even evil, but not more than what you'd expect in regular society. When the obey the teachings of the Watchtower, however, they can have devestating effects on people and families. People do regard the JW's as part of a "high control group". There are a number of things that lead them to conclude so, like this:

    I'm .....tired of the responsibility. Tired of the lofty expectations. I've had many worthwhile goals in my life. The one at 6 was just the first. Exhustion is the perfect word. I'm exhusted of trying to live by the rules, ..... And I'm tired of feeling like everyone is pulling in every direction.

    This, combined with the blackmail effect that shunning has on your family and social life is powerful.

    As far as war's go MOST religions do not advocate war. The Pope was vocal against every war I've seen. Many other religions also advocate "Alternative Military Service" like Watchtower does. These include Quakers, Amish, mennonites Adventists and others. Also, in WW2 Germany, the majority of conscientious objectors were NOT JW's. Of the 13,000 only about 1500 were JW's.

    This is just to give you some perspective, not to argue. You will never hear other religions praised in the Kingdom hall. You will only hear praise for JW's and reports of persecution of JW's. This despite that JW's make up only a small miniscule portion of Christians who are persecuted worldwide. Look at the above links. JW's also, are taught not to be generous to non-JW's. This was recently evidenced by the shocking LACK of any substantive responce by headquarters to the devestating Tsunami. Since there were few JW's in this are, they hardly blinked.

    Don't take this personally, but I think you need to "man up" and take control of your life. You seem to be drifting in the wind, letting everyone sway and affect you. This is symptomatic of people who have been JW's for a long time.

    Remember, this is the only life you know for SURE you have. Quit pissing it away.


  • adelmaal


    I took that quiz you suggested the Belief-O-Matic quiz and the results were a bit interesting and disconcerting at the same time... I am so not becoming a Mormon and I can't believe I still have 89% agreement with JWs. WTF is wrong with me...? Hmmm... Back to the drawing board . Guess it just goes to show no manmade system of religios beliefs is going to satisfy me fully. I must take what I agree with an leave the rest behind. How much you wanna bet these results will be different come a year from now...

    1. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (100%)

    2. Bahá'í Faith (96%)

    3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (93%)

    4. Orthodox Quaker (92%)

    5. Liberal Quakers (90%)

    6. Jehovah's Witness (89%)

    7. Orthodox Judaism (89%)

    8. Reform Judaism (85%)

    9. Islam (83%)

    10. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (78%)

    11. Sikhism (76%)

    12. Unitarian Universalism (74%)

    13. Eastern Orthodox (61%)

    14. Roman Catholic (61%)

    15. Seventh Day Adventist (58%)

    16. Jainism (57%)

    17. Secular Humanism (54%)

    18. Mahayana Buddhism (49%)

    19. Theravada Buddhism (48%)

    20. New Age (47%)

    21. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (46%)

    22. Neo-Pagan (46%)

    23. Nontheist (40%)

    24. Taoism (40%)

    25. New Thought (37%)

    26. Hinduism (26%)

    27. Scientology (26%)

  • EvilForce

    Look on the bright side....You're no Scientologist ?!?


  • adelmaal
    Look on the bright side....You're no Scientologist ?!?

    True - LOL

  • ljwtiamb

    I agree with upside/down

    Dude chill a little... and hang around here a while before you take another step!

    from your post you have a whole lotta conflicting thoughts and emotions right now!

    1. Guilt from leaving jws and new 'sins'
    2. Warmth of elders after attending meeting with GF
    3. Elder's commendation for helping GF
    4. All kinda family emotions that you have not overcome
    5. Feelings for GF
    6. Guilt for visiting this site and resulting attack of the 'apostates'
    7. Warm fuzzy feelings from past jw life though not wanting to go back

    Those are just a few that I picked out. Take your time before rushing in either direction. If you go to the KH you will LOTS of pulling in that direction. On this site you will LOTS of pulling away from WT.

    Ultimately you have to do what is right for you. That's what everyone here is trying to do.

    Welcome & Best wishes on YOUR future.

  • omerp

    Grey Eyes, I'm glad that you found this site and there are a lot of other sites also so do look around! I'm sorry that you seem to have had it with Religion but you can still have a personal relationship with Jesus and I think you'll find that God is everywhere so find a good church that allow you to also have your own mind without using mind control to make you do things that you can do on your own after all we were made to have a free will! Good luck!

  • Balsam

    Hi Greyeyes and other new ones,

    Welcome, we hope you will find help here. Just realize you will get suggestions that you are not interested in for now, perhaps never. Please don't get offended by anyone, many here have suffered terribly in ways you have never experienced. I say follow your heart, trust your gut instincts. I have to say you sound burned out. There is no rush, having your wife leave you for someone else traumatized you. She didn't love you or she would still be there.

    A suggestion for your girl friend if she wants to know the bible is to check out "The Teaching Company" college lectures on the OT and NT. I think she needs to back up and explore the bible itself before investing in any religion. The lectures are helpful and by college professors and I know they have helped me to understand the bible we have today better. Its a good place to begin before deciding that one particular religion has the truth. Some good bible scholars and bible historians books to read are by Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bart D. Ehrman to name a few. Karen Armstrong "A History of God" is good.


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