Can it be proven that the WTS is NOT God's personal organization?

by M.J. 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  rebel8

  Unless you have God Himself standing in front of you telling you who is and is not his special people, then you will never be able to prove it. What you can do is challenge the underlying logic and contradictions in those who claim to be the special ones. For example:

  IF God=all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, and

  JWs=God's people, being directed by God Himself, then

  there is no explanation for child molestation and other crimes occurring in congregations, people being DFd even though they haven't broken any JW rules, and many other things an all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful God would not allow.
• 

  Balsam

  To me the question is the bible really inspired by God or is mearly inspired by men. If it is inspired by men who think they have God's Holy Spirit in writing it then one needs to question it. If the bible is not the word of God, then one could come to the conclusion that any religion based on it is false.

  If one choses to still believe in the bible then the religion they are examining should have some divine proof of Holy Spirit being on them. Say healing the sick completely, raising the dead. None of their members ever die prematurely. They are perfectly godly, and never do things to hurt others. What religion can do those things? NONE you say. Well now you have your answer. LOL

  Balsam
• 

  mnb77

  God's personal organization would probalbly not say God said something he didn't:

  1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time...and they also learned to quit fixing dates." Vindication, page 338.

  1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" The Watchtower, 8/15/68, page 494.

  1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ?end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The ?end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them." Awake, 10/8/68.

  god's personal organization wouldn't be wrong, would they?

  mnb
• 

  JamesThomas

  Dear Noumenon,
  
  Thank you for your personal message. I am able to receive p.m. messages, but unable to reply via p.m.. Something to do with the Apple computer and browser I use.
  
  So, if you don't mind I will reply here.
  
  Since you are a person with religious beliefs, it is understandable that my "sphincter" comment was offensive to you, as your p.m. clearly implied. Like you, I was a Christian for a long time, and as such would likely have been offended when or if others did not reduce God down to the man-deity Jesus or jehovah, who I worshipped. Over time though, I began to see something.
  
  I began to notice that the beautiful expression of life and the universe, just went on and on. I purchased several microscopes, and discovered a whole other universe within our own. It is likely that no two anything are exactly alike. No two ants. No two grains of sand. No two leaves. No two stars. It's mind boggling, the INFINITE expression of Life and the universe. Then I got into a little Quantum Physics, and they theorized on more dimensions and uncountable universes. My mind short circuited in breathless awe and wonder of it all.
  
  Somewhere in there, my finite little man-god-creator who had conditions of acceptance, died. I could see that my religious beliefs were only conceptual thoughts, which reduced the Source of all to a thing like me, which my mind could hold and understand. I let go of my lesser god and the ton of scriptures and beliefs I labored with, and stood empty and naked before a Source and Sustenance which truly has no beginning or end. It's clear that the little anthropomorphic gods I was raised with may have comforted me some as a child, but when I grew up, they only blinded me to an infinitely greater Presence.
  
  It's sad that Christians are generally the first to be offended when you mention a truly unlimited and boundless God (understandable as it casts a shadow over their deity). And, in a way Noumenon, I could be offended at religious peoples continual belittlement of God, if I did not understand so well why they believe as they do.
  
  You are free to call anything I say what you like; I have said here before that it's all b.s.. That the actuality of truth is not found in words or beliefs, but rather in this present moment of aliveness and being (and clear sense of what is behind all phenomena; the Noumenon, if you like).
  
  One would think it would be good news for Christians to hear that the only distance or limits or boundaries to God are in our minds and beliefs. But sadly they would rather hold on to their cherished scriptures and mental idols than let go and fall into the arms of what really IS.
  
  The Catholic Church used to torture and kill people who spoke similar. I understand you're unhappiness with me. It's to be expected.
  
  Please feel free to p.m. me anytime.
  
  
  j
• 

  Hondo

  JT

  I am not offended by any of you comments JT. In fact I think they are great! They just confuse me a bit. I am a devote Christian and thought you "Sphincter" comment was good. I am not sure what you mean when you say that Jesus or God has been reduced to some sort of man-made diety however. "little man-god-creator...!!!", not sure what you mean by this as well. I guess for a lot of people he has, but would counter to say that to many he is larger than the bounds of life itself.

  I too like to look through telescopes, and the majesty of our simple evening sky, and dream of the of what is beyond. It is amazing. Being able to trace the outlines of the Martian canals, or the storms of Jupiter, is simply "out of this world." Or, to view through a microscope miniscule lifeforms, invisible to the naked eye, but alive. It always amazes me as I investigate the abundance of life in a single drop of water; there is seemingly another world there. Because of this I have not limited the boundaries of my thoughts or beliefs in Jesus or God to some man-made idea or concept. On the contrary, I have expanded these boundaries to as far as my brain will allow accepting all these incredible wonders as testimony to the existance of someone greater than I. I am of the belief that we, the earth, the universe, and most importantly, us humans, and not cosmic accidents. At the same time I also believe in the concepts of evolution (stange huh? There has got be a healthy interaction between science and religion. Pope John Paul II said this too. Those who believe in Sola Scripture, like the JW's, will forever be lost in the verses and chapters of the bible, believing they belong to the "right" group, waiting for the end of life, while life itself, and the universe passes them by. Sad, really sad).

  I hope I made sense here. I have nothing against your comments. I just want to present another way to look at the universal phenome know as God.
• 

  FairMind

  Find something that the WTS does that does not fit in with the description of the FDS and that is how you can disprove their assertion that they are the FDS.

  The above is the answer. The claim that the WTS is Gods organization rests on the assertion that the GB is part of a Faithful and Discreet Slave Class. In his book Captives of a Concept, Don Cameron completely dismantles the credibility of the FDS status now claimed by the GB. What Mr. Cameron does is to compare the actual historical events within the organization to their claims as to what occurred that proves they are the FDS. It soon becomes evident that the WTS has presented fabricated evidence for their claim of FDS status.
• 

  JamesThomas

  Dear Hondo,
  
  You, may be unusual, in that it seems your Christian beliefs have not narrowed down your vision.
  
  It was not that way for me, or seemingly most others I come in contact with. When I was seeped in Christian beliefs, my identity was centered around a conceptual idea of my creator as a thing, or object, or man-like deity who was just another character floating about the universe somewhere. The Bible generally supports this type view, especially when interpreted fundamentally.
  
  Viewing a god afar in this way, affected me in at a deep level. First it supported a sense of being outside Divinity: wholeness and purity. It reinforced a sense of separation and brokenness. My mind often dwelt on what I must be doing to appease God, and what I must be doing wrong. I filled my mind with words and scriptures and focused attention always to the future. In other words when I saw God as a thing, I shrunk and shriveled my own sense of self and existence, and it was painful.
  
  When, however, there was understanding that our true Source (call it "God" if you like), is not a thing, or object, or person, or entity that has form and can be named, but rather that all universes exist within It, then there was a freeing, openness and reason to be present and still. When my personal little Jesus dissolved, there were no longer 2000 years which separated this moment from sacredness. Time and space meant nothing, as it was seen separation was an illusion.
  
  When it is realized that the Livingness of this present moment is the expression of the Divine/God/Source, then we are open to see that we are Life Itself. Here, there is no more God to believe in, because there is no place where God begins or ends.
  
  When we place God outside of us (as in a Jehovah, or a Jesus, or an Allah) and make this one point or person most Holy, we subtract and reduce (in our minds) divinity everywhere else in the universe, and contract ourselves into a broken and incomplete being. An extremely high price to pay for our personal little god.
  
  There is no more need of a picture of Jesus in our mind when we realize the flower in our hand, and the consciousness which sees it -- is Divine.
  
  
  j
• 

  Hondo

  Thanks JT.

  Each to his own I guess. I look at grandure of God, the existance of a heaven, of angels, of hell, etc. as 50/50 proposition; either there are these things or there aren't. You can either live as if they existed, or live as though they did not exist. When you pass you either turn into the dust of the earth and no one is the wiser, except for some obscure notation on the headstone or urn, or, maybe this whole God thing does exist and when you expire you're judged accordingling, etc.... I guess you could say I am somewhat of a betting man and and have chosen to live my life believing in the omnipotence, omnipresence, love and goodness of God; a universal God that I have, in my own way, established a relationship with in my heart. When I die if I am totally wrong then I've lost nothing and am none the wiser for it, and my headstone will have some nice words (hopefully) about a beloved father, son, or some other nonsensical BS. If correct, however, and there is a God, heaven, etc., etc... and I am able to live in the presence of God for eternity, I am all the wiser. In light of this, right or wrong, I try to bring God as close to me as possible, daily. Am I a Christian geek type? no way! I love to have a few beers and party with the best of them. I know who to turn to when those inevitable roadblocks of life hamper forward progress. It seems to work for me and I enjoy comfort and peace during my times of unrest.

  I was moved by the recent coverage of the Pope's last few days and the follow-on funeral. Not only were there 1.2 billion Catholics (over 1/6th of the world population) paying attention to the proceedings, but more than 3 billion (over half the world population) viewed events on TV. I don't think all these people were people that viewed God myopically, but were people, Catholic, Muslim, Buddist, Protestant, Hindu, etc., who understood the overarching divinity of a supreme being.

  Off my soap box JT. Sorry to ramble. It's miller time.

  Take care.
• 

  Oroborus21

  MJ, Do you often spend your time on ORDINARY things in life? (beyond things necessary for living of course).

  What i mean is this:

  If the WT is NOT extraordinary as you say, then why in the world are you and all these other people spending part of your life/time on it?

  I submit therefore that the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is very extraordinary and as proof of that I submit the contents of this forum and as further witness every post made here at JWD.

  -Eduardo
• 

  Mighty Mike

  I am new here to this site. I have been seeking to learn about the JW organization and to date have come across a lot of upset, angry and let down folk. I think that in and of itself should be concrete evidence that this is not in any way form or fashion God's church or organization. You know what is interesting too, is that folks are quick to judge God and of course that by what they have experienced, but when we think about that, this organization has nothing to do with God, so how could anyone in it know about Him?

  Mike