by Norm 65 Replies latest jw friends
bigboi
Is it possible to use logical form to answer a question, yet still come up with an illogical answer?
illogical answer. no
incorrect answer. yes
if the info. entered into the equation is incorrect the answer will be incorrect but the logic may be sound.
Willy_think:
So then, what exactly is logic if even sound logic can lead to wrong conclusions?
ONE....
bigboi
"it ain't what ya do. it's how you do it" quote from the song "True Honeybunz" by Bahamadia
A person making an honest attempt at "sound logic" will not knowingly (or even just because of emotion) use incorrect information to arrive at an answer.
TeeJay,
You said:
To me it means (among other things) that in the matter of the existence of god logicians seem to omit from the equation what possibly exists but is as yet unknown.
Even the Bible say that you can’t count what is missing. Logic doesn’t concern itself with the unknown, if it did it wouldn’t be logic. This should be quite obvious, TeeJay.
Jan made a pretty clear explanation of logic in his post, he said:
“Logic is distinguished from opinion by not being arbitrary and subjective.”
Then you said:
That may be true for many who strictly adhere to logical thought, but even for them, there may, I say MAY exist evidence beyond puny man's ability to register at this point in time. Who is to say what presently existing evidence that is beyond our scope, may one day become measurable, making present "logical" viewpoints of god obsolete.
Again, what MAY exist is in the realm of faith, NOT logic. Your arguments is very similar to arguments used by Jehovah's Witnesses when they are confronted with evidence that Jerusalem didn’t fall in 607 BCE. Then they claim that yet uncovered archaeological evidence will no doubt prove the 607 date correct in the future. How LOGIC do you think that kind of reasoning is?
Norm
Norm, I think I said that when you have a mindset (not specifically religious people), then logic, reasoning won't work. Sorry if I wasn't sensitive enough to your anger and how you are still feeling. Is it possible that instead of the brainwashed Jdubs being the dim witted, it is really individuals who are - whatever labels you gave them - prior to being brainwashed. After all, would a sensible, logical person fall for that stuff. I had no choice - I was raised in it and can plead (?) ignorance. However their message is very appealing to people who are very vulnerable to predators. Once one is brainwashed are we then not just victim blaming?
patio34. Thanks for your quotes from Smith. What I was originally trying to say was that all beliefs (or even unbeliefs)are influenced by others. Where there is an unwillingness to challenge the belief or unbelief there is a mindset that is almost impervious to logic. For example, you quote from Smith as an authority just as JWs quote the WT as some sort of authority, or Muslims quote the Koran as some sort of authority, so you displaying an external influence on your thinking. Smith's argument that babies are born atheists makes as much sense as saying that children are born not believing in the USA. A baby is born with not much more belief than in its mother's breast! All knowledge is gained from external sources. Logically, what a baby is born either believing or unbelieving has little bearing on reality, such as the existence of USA. Be as open to challenge your unbelief as believers must be open to challenges of their beliefs. Cheers
Hello Amos,
You said:
Norm, I think I said that when you have a mindset (not specifically religious people), then logic, reasoning won't work. Sorry if I wasn't sensitive enough to your anger and how you are still feeling. Is it possible that instead of the brainwashed Jdubs being the dim witted, it is really individuals who are - whatever labels you gave them - prior to being brainwashed. After all, would a sensible, logical person fall for that stuff. I had no choice - I was raised in it and can plead (?) ignorance. However their message is very appealing to people who are very vulnerable to predators. Once one is brainwashed are we then not just victim blaming?
People might have all kinds of reasons for being and behaving like idiots. When people are born into or conned into an organization like the Watchtower Society it doesn’t free them from personal responsibility. I think that most people who aren’t in some way damaged through pregnancy and birth are born with the ability for reason and logic.
Unfortunately already as children far to many are exposed to superstition and fairy tales which they can observe a lot of adults take very serious, thus their thinking skills are already seriously damaged when reaching adulthood. Unfortunately children can’t choose their parents, and when parents are deeply superstitious, they of course do all they can to make their children perpetuate the nonsense. This of course is very bad luck for the child. It isn’t very fortunate to be born a child of fundamentalist parents, be that Moslem, Christian or Jewish. Still, the children can’t be excused concerning their own behaviour. If they choose to continue the legacy of idiocy they got from their parents, they can be pitied, we can understand why, but they can’t be excused.
Norm.
Norm, surely one can only choose if you have the ability mentally, emotionally, physically to make a choice and act on it. If you have choices put before you that you can "see" - if you are blind you can't see, if you are deaf you can't hear. If your neural pathways have been so programmed - there is not much room for lifting the lid and as you say so correctly, the paralysing fear. The lucky people are those who deep down, never accepted the Borg as THE truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - they had some reserve of free thinking. As for the rest of us.... I also acted on silent thinking, asking big J why, why, why. Paid a heavy price, but the freedom was worth it.
I think I prefer to just coast for the time being - not taking in a particular "poison" as a part of my mindset. I don't know everything, nor do I believe any other person does either.I do know I'll never be in another formal religious group. But as to the existence of anything supernatural, including God? I think I'll stay away from "hardlining" on either side. Too many things unknown.
I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for His reputation if He didn't. Jules Renard
I couldn't have said it better, Waiting!
RCat
Thanks, Norm, for taking a step in answering the questions I put to Jan. So far, you've answered one of them. I asked whether the science of logic concerned itself with what was possible but unknown. You said, "Logic doesn’t concern itself with the unknown, if it did it wouldn’t be logic." I can live with that.
Right after, you said, "This should be quite obvious, TeeJay." Correction. In making that statement, you weren't being logical considering how dense I can be sometimes as demonstrated on other threads. <g> Since people are different, what *I* might consider obvious isn't ALWAYS to someone else. I made an assumption, but since I'm asking questions for clarification, I didn’t want to take anything for granted.
"Your arguments is very similar to arguments used by Jehovah's Witnesses..."
Actually, Norm, I don't have any "arguments" in this topic (other than it's unwise to generalize about a whole group of people--even JWs), only questions. As I mentioned to Jan, I'm not familiar with the study of logic so what it means to be "logical" to a logician may not be the same as what is logical to a layman like me. Again, that's why I asked the questions. Hopefully Jan (or you?) will drop by and answer the other questions I have about "logic."
So far, you've clued me in that the study of logic deals with only hard facts and nothing else. There is a problem, though, of hoping to come to a complete answer to any problem relying solely on logic or any other single mode of examination. It can be compared to a trained biologist, unfamiliar with automobile mechanics, attempting to use her professional expertise as a biologist to figure out why her car won't start. She will soon reason that deciphering the problem in front of her will require a different set of mental tools other than biology. Many of the bigger problems of life must be solved by using more than one methodology. In other words, perhaps determining the existence of god requires more than just logic.
Just a thought.
peace,
todd
