My wife is getting baptized on the 19th!

by Check_Your_Premises 111 Replies latest jw experiences

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  144001

  Almost Atheist,

  I never suggested that CYP act as I would. My response would likely be more extreme than any he would take as he does not have the knowledge of this cult that I have. My suggestions to him are clear, and directed to him. You are quoting my response to RebellousSpirit, which was not intended to be advice to CYP. Nevertheless, since you went there, I absolutely disagree with the weak response you are suggesting. CYP can consult an attorney without his wife's knowledge, and would be very wise to do so. Aggressive threats require aggressive responses.

  Lining up an attorney, drawing lines in the sand, threats (even if they are real) aren't going to get you where you want to go.

  That's true if "where [he] want[s] to go" is the kingdom hall, or to a lifetime of misery for himself and his children.
• 

  jgnat

  144001, I must respectfully disagree. I am living this life, I know what I am talking about.

  The messy divorces I have seen here are mostly between well-established JW couples where one partner decides to leave. The JW partner has all the sympathy and clout of the local congregation, and the elders WILL interfere to help the divorce happen. The message, "If you dare to leave, we will make you hurt."

  In this case, they have a potential convert, possibly two. They are going to be all sweetness and light until they check out how easy a "mark" the hubby will be. She does not have a multi-generational support network in the hall. As well, hubby has his wits about him, has a plan, and knows his wife's motives. I think he has a good shot to come out of this with his wife and family intact.

  A local husband freaked when his disabled wife told him she wanted to get baptized. He is now labelled an "opposer". The lady and her study leader have agreed to say nothing next time, they will pick her up and get her baptized without telling the hubby. How do I know this? The study leader told me all about it, as an example of what great martyrs they are.

  I repeat, I am living this life, I know what I am talking about.
• 

  144001

  jgnat,
  
  
  Can you explain to me why you are so opposed to him privately seeking advice from an attorney and a counselor? The fact that you've chosen to tolerate your spouse's needs to be involved with a cult is a personal decision that you've made, but not everyone can tolerate the crap that comes with being married to a JW. That's why few of these marriages work, despite your claims to the contrary (hence the Society's publication of materials to help Witnesses fight their non-JW spouses in court). And, remember, he has kids, and their interests are also at stake. Consulting an attorney seems extremely prudent to me.
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  jgnat

  144001, I don?t take issue to your suggestion to privately consult an attorney. I disagree with the frontal-attack, aggressor approach. I also disagree that a divorce is imminent. There are plenty of mixed marriages in my congregation. The JW partner is treated as a martyr. Lots of people enjoy being martyrs. A freaked-out spouse is behaving exactly as the Watchtower Society has primed the study to expect. I say, be sly as a fox. Don?t freak. The situation is salvageable.

  Here are the statements you made that I take exception to:

  • While a successful marriage by a normal person to a Jehovah's Witness is indeed "possible," it's certainly not probable
  • you can safely assume that the day will come when she will choose the Watchtower over you
  • I'd give you 80% or greater odds that you're heading for divorce
  • divorce is an extremely likely reality
  • a strong potential of a divorce situation
  • If I was in your shoes, the Witnesses would need police protection to be anywhere near my wife
  • Step up to the plate and fight the Watchtower cult aggressively! Kick their f'ing ass!
• 

  Check_Your_Premises

  I really do appreciate all your concerns and advice. I appreciate all those who have helped me realize the scope of my problem.

  But let me make one thing clear. I am not divorcing my wife. I have children with her. I grew up in a broken home and my life since then has been trying to undo the damage of that experience.

  Marriage is a contract. It is like a business contract in that sense. You go into a contract hoping to make money. It doesn't always happen but the contract protects everyone. I went into this contract hoping to find love and happiness. It might not happen, but I just want to make sure everyone is protected.

  My concern is if she chooses to divorce me or leave me? I swore "in sickness and in health", this is admittedly pretty sick.
• 

  Check_Your_Premises

  Oh yeah, one other thing guys.

  My father is a lawyer. I don't pay legal fees. He knows all the judges and most of the attorneys in my county.

  So if we are talking legal action and preperation, give me some details. How could I sue members of the congregation? On what grounds? The divorce and blood stuff makes sense to me, I understand what I need to do there legally.

  Thanks again.
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  Can you explain to me why you are so opposed to him privately seeking advice from an attorney and a counselor?

  I know this wasn't directed at me, 144, but can I address it?

  It's a "who started it" issue. If it ever comes to light (and it will) that he 'talked divorce' with an attorney before she did, he will never get her trust back. It isn't just covering your bases, it's starting a process. If divorce is where he winds up, he says she'll have to initiate it. At that point (may it never come) he can consult all he needs to. Why give her a reason to believe he's on his way out the door? What purpose could it serve?

  This is all on the "divorce" side of the question. Since there are also serious medical issues involved, I think you and your wife need to get out in the open how you both feel about your children and the blood issue. Considering how weak the blood issue is anymore, you can probably get her to cede those decisions to you. She's off the spiritual hook, and you don't have a fight on your hands.

  (144 - Sorry if I made you appear to be saying something you weren't earlier, BTW. I just wanted CYP to see another opinion on it.)

  Dave
• 

  144001

  jgnat,

  If you believe that mixed marriages have the same odds of divorce as non-mixed marriages, you're fooling yourself. Few non-JWs can tolerate the lifestyle that their JW spouse would live, and the outrageous imposition on the time of their JW spouse. There's a reason the Society printed guidance for its members on dealing with divorces in mixed marriage situations. The reason is the high incidence of this situation. I can't quote statistics, but a counselor I've spoken with advised that these mixed marriages result in divorce at a much higher rate than regular marriages.

  I do agree that CYP ought to avoid the "line in the sand," approach, and that he needs to be very sly. Their response to an overtly aggressive tactic would be exactly what you said, the "martyr" complex. Any consultation with an attorney should indeed be done privately, and no threats or ultimatums should be given to the wife. Having said that, I think he should make it clear to his wife that he will never become a JW nor will he allow his children to be forced into this lifestyle. Holidays would continue at the house, etc.. She needs to know that the choice she's making is for her, not him and the kids.

  In addition to the hard line stance you mistakenly assumed I was advocating, as well as the reality of the failure rate of mixed marriages, I notice you took exception to my statements regarding what would be my own personal response to these circumstances. My likely personal response was never, ever, suggested as a response that CYP should take. It was a response to another post. It is indeed an emotional response, and certainly not the wisest one. Nevertheless, it is the response I would take, despite the consequences and apparent foolishness. It's the only way I'd be able to live with myself. If there's one thing I learned as an exploited child of the Watchtower, it's never allow yourselt to be a floormat. Toughness is one of the only valuable attributes I acquired during the hell that was my childhood.

  I'm surprised that you took exception to my encouragement that he "kick the Watchtower's f'ing ass." Why would you care about the Watchtower's interests?
• 

  moshe

  The 'absolute spiritual endangerment" principle did me in- my wife divorced me within a year after that WT article came out in 1988.

  By all means have the elders come over- ask why they have avoided getting to know you . Ask how you would be treated if you attend a meeting? Can you ask questions? Go to the meetings prepared with some dumb questions- If you make the elders uncomfortable and look badly, then they won't be so anxious for your wife to attend meetings, either, if it includes you as part of the package.- try and get the elders to treat you badly, too, at the meetings. Mention something about don't Christians show love here - ask some elders over for a get together with their wives- do the dumb question stuff and put them on the spot. Keep asking them over until they avoid you-THEN ask your wife why they are shunning you! You just have doubts and just want answers, where's the love! Your wife needs to see the elders treat you badly- hopefully her loyalty to you will win out.

  good luck,

  Moshe
• 

  144001

  CYP,

  The fact that your father is a lawyer is the most encouraging thing I've heard yet. Talk to your dad about it; the consultation is free and it sounds like you're well set up in the event that litigation becomes necessary.

  As for suing the "converters" personally, I would recommend a cautious approach. Jgnat's concerns are indeed valid regarding the "martyr" complex. They will work to get your wife thinking of herself as a martyr, and that your actions are Satan's resistance to the saving of your wife's life. My comments in this regard (i.e., regarding my personal approach to it) are based on my personal experiences as an exploited child of the Watchtower, which have left me with zero tolerance for this abusive cult. But you have not experienced what I have, so I would not expect you to have the same perspective.

  Since you've made it clear that saving your marriage is of high importance to you, I strongly suggest you make an appointment with a marriage and family counselor to discuss this matter and determine the best way to keep your marriage alive while accommodating your wife's need to belong to this cult. That's probably even more important than the legal consultation.

  There is no question that a successful mixed marriage will require sacrifice on your part. The exact amount of such sacrifice depends on how devoutly your wife adheres to the principles and teachings of the Watchtower cult.

  I really hope you are able to work all of this out. It's really a shame that this cult continues to exist, tax free, imposing so much hardship on so many.