Is Baptism a contract?? If so, are minors able to give legal consent??

by coult9056 30 Replies latest jw friends

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  coult9056

  Everyone, thanks for the input, so far. I will definitely be checking out the "Vicki Boer" case. I can't say I've ever heard of her, but I knew that I could not be the only XJW who ever thought about the legality of their underage baptism.

  As far as the judicial committee goes...In my conversation with the elder, I can say there was a bit of one-upmanship going on. I told him I would be a lawyer in 3 years; he reminded me that he has been an elder for 10 years. I know, I know, my worldly education won't much to witnesses; they'll think I'm just an uppity, bitter XJW. But I'm not. I will miss the freedom to talk to them when I see them in town. I might even return if I was allowed to disagree, but everyone knows JWs are required to run with the organization: don't run ahead!!! don't run behind!!!! run with the organization...meaning believe what we believe while we believe it until we change it and then you change your beliefs, too. I told the elder last night that I don't want to run at all. I want to sit down and think about things for myself .

  Back to the underage baptisms: I do remember reading some post somewhere concerning instructions to elders in judicial committees. The instruction was that if a brother involved in a judicial committee mentioned that he would be seeking legal action against the society, the judicial committee was to immediately inform headquarters for further instructions. I couldn't find anything on that in the "Pay Attention to Yourselves and The Flock" book online.

  Not that it really matters, though. I'm not going to sue anyone. If they want to disfellowship me, they can go ahead. Beforehand, I'll probably visit a couple of congregations I used to go to so I can say goodbye. But I absolutely won't participate in any judicial committee meetings, just like I haven't disassociated myself. I view both of those actions as THEIR rules, not MINE. I will continue to simply refuse to participate in their form of worship: blind faith in an organization/corporation.

  I just can't believe that a foolish decision I made in March of 1988, when I was 15 years old is the vehicle the JWs will use to officially condemn me to their members. Being committed for life to a decision made at such a young age is just plain wrong, like so many WTBS cult rules. If I was committed for life to all of the things I was committed to at age 15, I'd still masturbate everyday and have Star Trek posters on my wall.

  The support on this site and several others for XJWs, soon to be XJWs, and even struggling, active JWs helped me so much to get out of the Kingdom Hall, into college, and onward to a better, calmer life. I always appreciate it.
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  cyber-sista

  They started the shunning but it has been a blessing and I intend to continue it. No way would I ever want them to quit shunning. It's the one thing they have done to me that I have appreciated.

  I'm really beginning to hear you on this one Gary. Seems like any contact with witnesses these days does not make me feel well. It is like revisiting a very spooky old house with creapy people living in it.

  I have often wondered about my baptism being a legally binding contract by the fact that they changed the contract in 1985 when the baptism vows were changed. I was baptized before 1985 and I didn't agree to the present contract--neither did I sign any papers agreeing to this or any other contract made by the JW Org. Or, maybe I could plead temporary insanity on my part. I don't want to put anything in writing (such as a DA letter) as this would be admitting that I was in a contract with the Org--I was not. If I was in a contract with Jehovah then he should be the judge of whether I be Dfd or whatever--but Jehovah won't stand as a witness for the WT, neither does the WT have any proof that Jehovah really exists. And if God exists only he can be the judge according to the WT. If this is truly the case how then can the elders judge you one way or another legally or scripturally?

  cybs
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  144001

  "If you follow the premise that baptism is a legal contract, under US law a minor can enter into a binding contract."
  
  
  Since baptism is not one of life's necessities or one of the other exceptions to the general rule that minors do not have capacity to enter into a contract, in a majority of states, such a contract would require court approval or it would be voidable by the minor.
  
  A contract of this nature ought to be void, not voidable.
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  AlmostAtheist

  But I absolutely won't participate in any judicial committee meetings, just like I haven't disassociated myself. I view both of those actions as THEIR rules, not MINE.

  Not that you need to hear it, but good for you! Take away the one thing they genuinely care about -- their power over you.

  (In my heart, I know that isn't entirely true. The elders (peons in the organization) by-and-large genuinely care and think they're doing what is right. It's the top leadership you're thumbing your nose at when you refuse to play their little games. It still feels good!)

  Dave
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  jst2laws

  144001,

  Since baptism is not one of life's necessities or one of the other exceptions to the general rule that minors do not have capacity to enter into a contract, in a majority of states, such a contract would require court approval or it would be voidable by the minor.
  
  A contract of this nature ought to be void, not voidable.

  If I remember correctly you speak with authority on matters of law. Do you have information about a child coming of age but going along with the WT rules. Does that "imply" validation of the contract made years before?

  What about the change in the 'dissassociation' policy in 1981, and the change in the 'vows' in 1985? If we did not object to the change, does that imply acceptance of the new policy, nullifying future legal complaints?

  Jst2laws
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  Qcmbr

  You guys out there - be glad they didn't do circumcision (fairly irreversable)- oops you guys are mainly US hehe!!
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  Big Dog

  144001, good catch, that took me all the way back to my contracts exam. What area do you practice in?
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  Big Dog

  Made me dig out my old contract book, which states: The minor has long been accorded special contractual immunity. The extent of protection has diminished somewhat in recent years, either by decision or statute, but nowhere today is the minor recognized as possessing full legal capacity to contract. In general, a minor's contracts are voidable; obligation maybe avoided by timely and appropriate disaffirmance. The other party, if an adult, is bound, reflecting the risk of contracting with one who is under age. A minor cannot affirmatively reatify until he comes of age. After that date any manifestation by him and an intent to regard the bargain as binding will deprive him of the power to avoid the contract.... Mere silence or inaction fy a former minor after attaining majority does not amount to ratification....However, a minor should be required to dissaffirm within a reasonable time after coming of age.... Hope that helps Jst2laws.
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  Cocoon

  I totally agree with you regarding baptism being a contract. I was baptized at ten and had it not been for the fact that I was railroaded into this organization by my mother, she, my sister and my brother would still be allowed to speak with me today. I haven't had contact with any of them for 25 years. What child knows what they want to do with their life at ten, or even eighteen for that matter! I don't remember any elder telling me I'd be disfellowshipped and lose my family forever if I got baptized and left someday. That need to build THAT into their public talks! Funny how I missed that point but probably read every Watchtower three times. I was disfellowshipped because I left. Period. No sins. One of my future newsletters will be focusing on how young people were when they were baptized. I hope to shed some light on this to see how young the society really goes in promoting its lifelong followers. I also want to hit on why people are disfellowshipped. The "reasons" are ludicrous at best and staggering! P.S. I also think that disfellowshipping is an infringement on our first amendment right.
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  rebel8

  I agree with the principle that minors are too young to get baptized. I?m with ya to that point only.

  Child baptism has been legal in the US for as long as the US has existed. Religions have been allowed to baptize children for millennia.

  The issue of contracts/baptism has been brought up a zillion time by ex-jws.

  According to http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/contracts.html : ?Contracts are promises that the law will enforce. The law provides remedies if a promise is breached or recognizes the performance of a promise as a duty.?

  I?m sure an attorney could better this answer, but just using common sense here?what contract did you enter? Where is a copy of the written contract? In what respect is baptism a contract that the law will enforce? If you want to sue them for breach of contract, what was breached? Did they ever promise to provide you something in exchange for your baptism, that wasn?t fulfilled?