Is Baptism a contract?? If so, are minors able to give legal consent??

by coult9056 30 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  JT

  I?m sure an attorney could better this answer, but just using common sense here?what contract did you enter? Where is a copy of the written contract? In what respect is baptism a contract that the law will enforce? If you want to sue them for breach of contract, what was breached? Did they ever promise to provide you something in exchange for your baptism, that wasn?t fulfilled?

  #######

  great point, i have seen this issue kicked around for years since i have been on the net and if one lives in the usa, they got to keep in mind that typically courts DO NOT GET INTO CHURCH LAW-

  keep in mind if you had a jury of folks-- all good christians, --many who believe it don't matter which church you got baptized in since your baptism is between YOU AND GOD not the church,-- so they would be sitting their reflecting on their own concept of baptizm.

  i see this much like so many other things when it comes to being a jw; folks outside the org have no concept or can't grasp what it is like to be a jw due to NO EXP OF THEIR OWN

  most folks would say, -----why didn't you just leave -if you didn't like the religion, that is what I DID!!!

  I DIDN'T like they way they ran things down at Better Mt Nebo so i went over to Greater Christ and God Assembly

  SO these jury members would be completely loss as one tried to make the connection that your deication is between the WTBTS,inc, but since yours was before 1985 it was just between you and god

  it would sound like you have been smoking dope to them-

  we fully understand the nuiances of the org, folks outside don't

  over and over i have seen and read of cases being lost due to the lawyers not understanding wt lingo and mindset-

  as jw -we thought and acted on a completly different plane than the avg man or woman- and that is why so many here will say

  my nonjw mate says GET OVER IT, well they don't understand and can't be expected to either, but we do-

  we are locked in a world that will be with us until we die, life is an amazing thing

  you could never talk to a nonjw about what it was like being 7yrs old and put out of class during the flag salute- there are things that we as former jw share that is very difficutl for others to commprend that is why the net THANG is so important in helping all of us deal with the challenges of trying to live normal lives

  how many of you recall being told, WE CAN'T LIVE NORMAL LIVES IN THIS SYSTEM

  yet that is the only life there is to live- smile

  i think the baptism thing - while i understand your point, will be a challenge to get some real teeth into

  just my 2
• 

  cyber-sista

  Good points JT...Yes, my non-JW hubby has a hard time understanding why I had such a hard time of it separating from the Org and other people do to. Many just view the WT as any other church and don't understand what the big deal is and why you can't just walk out the door. Even my shrink who is trained in cult deprogramming tecniques seems to have a hard time grasping some of the JW concepts and I can see the shock on his face sometimes when he does.

  Welcome cocoon...what little you wrote about your baptism at 10 and then not having contact with your family for 25 years speaks volumes. Probably my biggest peeve about this Organization right now is what they are doing to families. It's downright criminal the way they lock people away in the organization not allowing them their god given rights as human beings. they are cruel jailors to say the least. Looking forward to hearing more from you...

  take care all,

  cybs
• 

  144001

  Do you have information about a child coming of age but going along with the WT rules. Does that "imply" validation of the contract made years before?

  Upon reaching the age of majority, an individual can ratify (surrender the power of avoidance) a contract entered into as a minor. The issue of whether ratification has occurred is dependent upon the unique facts and circumstances of each case, but in general, any manifestation of an undertaking to be bound by the original transaction could be deemed to constitute ratification. In the case of a minor who was baptized, the acts of continuing to attend meetings, engage in field service, give talks, and doing the rest of what constitutes being a JW would most likely be asserted by the Watchtower as acts constituting ratification.
• 

  willyloman

  we fully understand the nuances of the org, folks outside don't

  Worth repeating. Great post, JT.
• 

  mkr32208

  I think the problem is that they would say that to seek to have your babtism voided would be the same as DA'ing yourself... So your back to square one...
• 

  JustTickledPink

  I am right there with everyone on the subject. Baptized at 11 yoa and really didn't get baptized as a vow to God, I did it because I wanted and desperately needed approval and acceptance from my mother and others in the cong that gave you praise if you did it. I also did it to get attention of this older boy who was baptized, I thought he might "like" me if I got baptized. I know I was only 11, I guess I was an early bloomer.
• 

  trevor

  gary buss said:

  ?I'd sue the Witnesses if they quit shunning me. Being shunned by the Witness people is the best thing that has ever happened to my family. I don't like the Witness people, I don't like them talking to us, and I insist they shun us.?

  I think that?s a great point of view, so positive and the complete opposite of taking a victim stance. I shall adopt this position myself.
• 

  coult9056

  I don't think anyone here is taking a "victim stance." The fact that so many were baptized at such a young age, then disfellowshipped or simply disillusioned when they were older and wiser is worthy of reflection.

  Most of us are looking at the underage baptisms apparently not so much as a contract, but, shall we say, an oath. I look at the oath I took as invalid. I was only 15 years old. For most crimes, had I committed any, they would have been removed from the public record at the age of 18. I am starting to see my baptism/oath/contract..call it what you will...in the same vein.

  Therefore, I no longer recognize it as symbolizing my lifelong dedication to anything. I do agree with the earlier post that the elders will simply view that as renouncing my faith, i.e. disassociating myself.

  This thread has been very helpful and has helped me reach a clear view of my underage, invalid baptism.
• 

  IT Support

  Hi coult9056 ,

  Good letter, congratulations for moving on and getting into law school.

  I'm no lawyer, but as others have pointed out, contract law may present some difficulties.

  Have you thought about using human rights instead?

  *** g98 11/22 pp. 9-10 Human Rights and Wrongs Today ***

  Everyone

  has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion. ?Article 18. [of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights]

  WT stamps their collective feet and yells about the right to change your religion when they perceive other churches unfairly hindering their members from joining the WT. They singularly fail to consider it, far less apply it, to JWs who wish to leave their religion. (After all, they arrogantly assume, why should anyone wish to leave 'the truth'?)

  But surely by failing to allow you to freely leave and criticise their religion, by disfellowshipping or disassociating you (with all the trauma to family life that this results in), they are denying you your human right to change your religion?

  Anyway, I hope everything works out ok for you. Keep us posted!
• 

  outoftheorg

  I think I can tell you how many, if not most attorneys or judges, will react to your complaints about religion and how you were treated.

  At least this I think, would be their first view of these problelms.

  I approached an attorney about the df'n and how it broke up the family.

  He sat quietly and listened. When I was done, he said something along the lines of, then why in hell did you let your family into that religion.

  From that point on, it was plain that he wanted nothing to do with ME because he felt that I must be an idiot and deserved what I got.

  I think one would almost have to find an attorney who had lived the same kind of life, to understand.

  Outoftheorg