Christmas Star = Satan?!

by reagan_oconnor 69 Replies latest jw friends

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Yeru

    I previously had in mind replying to something else you said, and forgot to.

    God spoke to the Magi in a dream.

    But ONLY because the life of the Messiah was at stake. Keep in mind too that these were not the first pagans that “God spoke to in a dream”. Nebuchadnezzar certainly didn’t have God’s favor, yet God spoke to him in a dream. And this is not the only similar example wherein pagans heard from God. So, contrary to what you suppose, the mere fact that God spoke to the Magi via a dream in no way proves that they were on good terms with God.

    Friday

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Friday,

    Let's try it this way, Show me from scripture where the star and the coming of the magi are of satan. It can't be done.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • reagan_oconnor
    reagan_oconnor

    This is exactly the point I tried to make with You Know; I want scriptural proof (after all, isn't the Bible God's inspired Word?) not JW reasoning.


    I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Friday,
    A few issues though. Christmas in no wise replaced the Saturnalia. The Holiday of Christmas was instituded AGAINST the Roman feast of Sol Invictus, the feast of the Unconqueored Sun, study the history a bit more. Saturnalia was celebrated in Mid Decemeber, Sol Invictus a few days after the winter solistis (sp) i.e. After Dec 21st.

    Matthew 2:7-11 says,

    When Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, in the days of King Herod, behold, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, "Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star at its rising and have come to do him homage." When King Herod heard this, he was greatly troubled and all Jerusalem with him. Assembling all the chief priests and the scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. They said to him "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it has been written through the prophet: 'And you Bethlehem, land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; since from you shall come a ruler who is to shepher my people Isarel.' Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared; and he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, "Go and search diligently for the child. When you have found him bring me word, that I may go and do him homage...They were overjoyed to at seeing the star...they fell down and worshipped him

    From the above I draw that the Star didn't necessarily lead them to Jerusalem, but rather that the Magi went there expecting that was where to find a king (plus the fact that it would have been rather rude for dignataries from another country to enter into Israel without stopping by the king's house for a courtesy call. Another reason to think that perhaps the star didn't take them to Jerusalem is that they were "overjoyed" at seeing the star when the got to Bethlehem. Also, we see that the Magi either worshipped or did obessence to Jesus, recognizing him as a King. I don't pretend they understood the full implication of that, but not even the disciples did at first.

    Isaiah 60 speaks to the messiah, and verse 6 speaks of people from the East bring him Frankincense and Gold. Now where else in Jesus life did this occur? As to whether or not it was a real star? Are we not to take the bible at it's word, several time it calls it a STAR not "what appeared to be a star" Finally, show me from scripture that we are to believe this is from Satan and not from God.

    Yeru

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Yeru

    Let's face it, Yeru, you can't prove your claim regarding the one and only scripture you base your belief on, namely Isaiah 60:6. The only thing you can come back with in response to all the many things that I gave you to think about and consider (think about what I’m saying here) is a lone, puny, single sentence ... asking a silly question. Have you already forgotten what I have told you, or is it that you wish not to remember? I had said, quote: ... the Bible is silent as to where the “star” come from. [For that reason, therefore,] it is left up to our discretion to determine the source of the “star”, by reasoning upon all the facts that can be gathered.

    Of course "reasoning upon all the facts" is something that you and the one who originated this thread to begin with, namely Reagan, feel is a sin. Although she says that she wants "scriptural proof", she is not willing to consider the scriptural proof that is there to be discovered by merely reasoning upon the facts that ARE found in the Bible. Both of you are being quite unreasonable. And both of you are also too hooked on the idea of rushing to the fireplace on Christmas morning so as to see what Santa left you that you aren't able to recognize the evidence that's there which shows that Satan perpetrated a great lie when he produced that "star". And the sad thing about it is that there are multitudes of people today that have fallen for that very same lie, even as the Magi did some two thousand years ago. Are you so naïve as to think, that once the Magi were informed to go back to their land by another route, that they didn’t realize that they have been taken in by the “star” that was merely using THEM to accomplish a murder? It looks like you are every bit that naïve.

    Let's try it this way, Show me from scripture where the star and the coming of the magi are of satan. It can't be done.

    You're ridiculous, Yeru. That's done been done. That's what I have already done. You are just too dim witted to realize it. That's apparently the reason why You Know had better things to do with his time than to mess with you. (His time is more limited than mine, otherwise I wouldn’t be here farting around with you either.) Just as you have shown me, after all that has been said (mostly by me, look back and compare), you, in the finale, waste a great big whole sentence and say, in essence: “I'll tell you what, Friday, let's start all over again with this ... because you see, Friday, I'm a bit hard of hearing.” The fact is, Yeru, is that YOU haven't ears to hear the Bibles many truths. When what you listen to conflicts with what you prefer to believe, and that which disagrees with the Catholic faith, then your ears become stopped up.

    Friday

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Yeru

    A few issues though.

    A “few issues” butt! Listen, Yeru, I’m gonna address only one or two more things here, and until you stop side-stepping the many “issues” that I myself confront YOU with (which you have a great nack for conveniently ignoring), I will not continue on with this. With the exception of a very few things, you have deliberately ignored, time and time again, the many responses that I’ve made to the questions that you YOURSELF have raised. You neither say “yea” nor “nay”. That’s a sure sign of one that’s unwilling to proceed on the up and up. Either address those things and quit jumping to other new points, or admit that you’ve experienced defeat. And don’t ask me to point those things out to you. You can read, and you HAVE read them.

    From the above I draw that the Star didn't necessarily lead them to Jerusalem, but rather that the Magi went there expecting that was where to find a king

    Do not use THIS particular point/issue as another diversion tactic to avert attention off the many things that you should have already answered, but didn’t. OF COURSE the “star” led them to Jerusalem, by reason of the fact that it pointed them in the direction of THAT city. How else do you suppose that they knew that the “king” that was supposedly born was to be king of the Jews?

    Another reason to think that perhaps the star didn't take them to Jerusalem is that they were "overjoyed" at seeing the star when the got to Bethlehem.

    You’re not citing the Bible accurately, Yeru. (Will you be honest enough to admit that? Or will you conveniently ignore it like you did all the times up above.) You are ignoring the fact that the “star” was first seen again by the Magi upon their leaving out of Jerusalem:

    When they had heard the king, they went their way; and, look! the star they had seen [when they were] in the east went ahead of them, until it came to a stop above where the young child was. On seeing the star they rejoiced very much indeed. And when they went into the house…. -- Matthew 2:9-11.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Also, we see that the Magi either worshipped or did obessence to Jesus, recognizing him as a King.

    How many times does it make now Yeru that you’ve said that? I’ve replied to that each time that you did, and you completely ignore the fact that I did. You don’t seem to say much anyway (size-wize), and then much of the content of what you do say is a mere repetition of something you’ve already said and that I’ve already overturned. Look back and see if this is not the case. What is occupying your mind, in addition to this discussion, that prevents you from realizing this. If it’s the concern you have over your wife’s current status, I can understand that. But, is it really THAT?

    Isaiah 60 speaks to the messiah, and verse 6 speaks of people from the East bring him Frankincense and Gold. Now where else in Jesus life did this occur? As to whether or not it was a real star? Are we not to take the bible at it's word, several time it calls it a STAR not "what appeared to be a star" Finally, show me from scripture that we are to believe this is from Satan and not from God.

    What proof do you have of that … the mere fact that you find the words frankincense and gold mentioned there? That fact alone doesn’t prove what you would wish that it did, Yeru. I suggested that to you previously. Also I keep asking you to explain, starting with verse one, the context that surrounds that verse; and keep stressing that it’s YOUR responsibility to demonstrate that you understand it all so as to justify having a claim such as you do. But so far you continue to ignore the fact that such a responsibility rests in your lap, because it is YOU that says that the 6th verse means such and such.

    Perhaps you should wait until the concern for your wife is out of the way before you continue with this. You and your wife have my best wishes.

    Friday

  • terraly
    terraly

    Hey Friday,

    Your argument is that God takes credit for making the tree of God and Evil, and therefore we can ignore the reasoning that since (through man choosing sin) this tree has led to untold suffering and death, it cannot have been created by God.

    The following is the only substantial argument you have for the star being a creation of Satan:

    The star these men followed led them, not directly to Jesus' birthplace in Bethlehem, but to Jerusalem, where King Herod ruled. Their following that star resulted in the slaughter of all the male infants in Bethlehem ... it's therefore absurd -- ABSOSUTELY ABSURD -- to attribute the star to God. God would have foreseen the tragedy and not took them via Jerusalem if it had been Him that had been maneuvering the star. As it is, the way you would have it -- attributing the star to God -- you are making God responsible for the deaths of a huge number of children, which of course is not true at all.

    I will acknowledge that on the face of it this seems to make some sense. However:

    1)there are many stories in the Bible about man/satan peverting the designs of God. Obviously, for the Garden of Eden story to make any sense we must assume that God, for whatever reason, does choose to allow people to exercise their free will, even if it delays his plans. The star going to Jerusalem did not guarentee the slaughter of the children, it was Herod's sinful response to the news that led to this slaughter.

    2)God does claim to have created the stars (in Genesis). But perhaps the "star" was not really a star (a comet or something else). We still hear that God created everything (in the opening sentences of John for instance, "through him (Jesus) all things were made"). Is there another example where Satan actually created something?

    3)Why would God have allowed Satan to use the star in this way? It seems that if Satan has free reign to go around moving the stars in the heavens it sort of compromises his sovreignty, doesn't it?

    Thanks

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Yeru

    Again, something I forgot to address:

    As to whether or not it was a real star? Are we not to take the bible at it's word, several time it calls it a STAR not "what appeared to be a star"

    I’ve already explained how unreasonable it would be to conclude that such “star” was in fact a literal star. You know as well as anyone else that a literal star is tremendous in size. For those that insist on believing that it was a literal star then the burden is upon them to show how something that huge could be perceived as coming to rest directly overhead and single out the entire province of Judea, not to mention pointing out a single home in the town of Bethlehem. Why that would require quite a stretch of the imagination. And so here you are, willing to stretch your imagination to this unreasonable degree, and yet you’re unwilling to stretch it just a tiny bit so that you stumble at the fact that the Bible refers to the object as a “star”. Tell me, Yeru, why do people call meteorites that plunge through the atmosphere, and burn up doing so, a "falling star"? It's because they resemble stars. Isn't that true? In the same way, the "star" which the Magi viewed must have looked to them much like a star ... afterall, that's what they referred to it as.

    And yes, I would suggest that the Bible be taken “at it’s word” … but then again, to understand it correctly isn't failing to do that. Instead, it’s doing so all the more.

    Friday

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Terraly

    Your argument is that God takes credit for making the tree of God and Evil, and therefore we can ignore the reasoning that since (through man choosing sin) this tree has led to untold suffering and death, it cannot have been created by God.

    Well, Terraly, you seem to have overlooked a most pertinent point that I made earlier. Also, let’s not lose site of the fact that the main point of concern here is: Was God the source of the “star”? Or, was it Satan? Of course no one contends whether God created the “tree” that you refer to. But when it comes to the “star” the Bible doesn’t directly say who the source of it was. So, as I’ve already stressed, all that is left for one to do, that is if one is concerned enough to want to know, is to gather all the facts available and make a judgment based upon those facts.

    And so I think you must’ve overlooked a crucial point that I had made, which is relevant to the statement you made and which I quoted above. I had made the point that if the “star” had been of God’s doing, then, since He would have obviously known beforehand that all those infants were destined to die as a result of that star having led the Magi to Herod, then God Himself therefore would be the one to blame for the deaths of all the children that were slaughtered.

    So, it is as plain as day … God was obviously NOT the source of the “star”. For verification (not that any is really needed, of course) of the fact that God DID know beforehand what the outcome of the star would be, one need only turn to the 18th verse of Matthew, chapter 2. Also, compare Jeremiah 31:15, 16.

    3)Why would God have allowed Satan to use the star in this way? It seems that if Satan has free reign to go around moving the stars in the heavens it sort of compromises his sovreignty, doesn't it?

    As I’ve already called attention to, the “star” obviously wasn’t a real star like the stars that comprise the galaxies. Satan doesn’t “go around moving” THOSE stars. The “star” that he moved was a fake “star” … every bit as fake as the prank that he pulled in the Garden of Eden in making the snake talk. Actually, he really did cause a sound to come forth from the snakes mouth. But that’s a subject for another day.
    2)God does claim to have created the stars (in Genesis). But perhaps the "star" was not really a star (a comet or something else).

    You might find interesting this bit of information taken out of the WTS publication Insight On The Scriptures, Vol. 2, page 1033, under the subtitle “Star” Seen After Jesus’ Birth:
    As to the “star” (Gr., a·ster') seen by them, many suggestions have been given as to its having been a comet, a meteor, a supernova, or, more popularly, a conjunction of planets. None of such bodies could logically have ‘come to a stop above where the young child was,’ thereby identifying the one house in the village of Bethlehem where the child was found. It is also notable that only these pagan astrologers “saw” the star.

    Hope that perhaps this addresses your concerns.

    Friday

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Bringing it to the top for you, Yeru.

    Friday

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