Bush failure or stable Iraq? (page 2)

Preston

Success or failure? Hmmmm, good question. I guess from your definition of success Spartacus "Giving the Iraqi people a chance to govern themselves toward a stable democratic society" sounds like a good measure of success. I personally would like to see success despite whoever is in charge. I think how most people have answered this question so far on this thread has been analyzed in the light of if it will be a possibility. I think this is debatable. Is our desire for success greater than the sacrifice necessary in order to attain it? Almost every single assumption of our prewar intelligence has been false. Bush didn't do enough to persuade people to see the benefit of a self governing Iraq rather than persuade us through fear of biological weapons. It may very well be far into the future when the Iraqis are self-governing. We really don't know. Are we as a country willing to sacrifice as much as possible to see democracy flourish in Iraq, and will it be important to create war in neighboring countries to see it work. Then again, Iraq is already too diverse to revert to Iranian stytle theocracy, the bathists won't control the government again, Iraq itself is too rich to fall into unending poverty. We should anticipate success given all that we've sacrificed. I for one would like to see the iraqis as a self-governing society, which sounds a helluva alot better than being coerced by a despot for vote for a single person on the ballot every election... Hope things work out.

- Preston

Spartacus

Sooo, undercover, hillary_step, what are you hoping for in the future regarding Iraq? Would you take gratification if your predictions are right or would you be gracious if things eventually turn out well for Bush's effort?

undercover

Would you take gratification if your predictions are right or would you be gracious if things eventually turn out well for Bush's effort?

It's already turned out bad for Bush's effort. He's already been proven a liar. He used false pretenses to invade another sovreign nation. Why should I be gracious about that?

That being said, if this thing can be wrapped up and the troops come home and the Iraqis rule themselves without insurgency or civil war I'll be happy and grateful. But I won't praise Bush for bringing freedom to that nation. I'll just be grateful it's over.

Spartacus

Preston, very well stated and very reasonalbe too and you answered the question, LOL :) People tend to believe whatever agrees with their emotions, for many, emotions carry them not logic or objectivity, it's human but not always wise. For a moment I was ticked off about Iraq too but then there should be a time for doing the right thing after what many including myself think was a mistake. And because of it Bush should not have gotten re-elected but for Kerry, hell no. Many of the charges I read against the US are without evidence or with propagandized and anti-conservative propaganda as evidence from some left wing think tank or Socialist propaganda agent or left wing media idealog who seeks the failure of America's effort in Iraq or America itself. This war certainly gave a vent for suppressed hatred for Americans and America.

Again, I don't agree with going into Iraq, now that we are in it what should happen next, what should be hoped for next? Is this a time to continue to have an immature pissy fit or is it time to think and work our way out of it with the best things hoped for?

Spartacus

Undercover, don't you think since we made things worse for the moment for the Iraqi people of which a majority of them hated Saddam and who actually want a shot at democracy or self-rule that we owe them a real chance of attaining it? If we just pull out what do you think are the chances of real success of that happening? We made a mess now do you think it is our responsiblity to clean it up?

OK, I had to edit this because Undercover pretty much answered the question which I think is fair before I posted. How about you hillary_step, do you wish the best for the Iraqi people or do you wish that the US fails in Iraq? Will you find more satisfaction in being right predicting more chaos or would you be gracious if things worked out of a stable and democratic Iraq.

The point I am making just because your emotions says one thing does not mean it is the right thing. 2 wrongs don't make a right. It is wrong to forment hatred and hope for the demise of the United States in it's efforts in Iraq. Is it possible for me or anyone to make an argument in this regard?

hillary_step

Spartacus,

what are you hoping for in the future regarding Iraq?

I have made no secret of the fact that the US attempts at forcing democracy on the Middle East are not going to work. The reason for this is that one cannot change an ideology that has been entrenched for 1500 years, with troops and banners. The average Middle Eastern inhabitant has not experience of democracy, in fact many view it as an evil, an assault on their faith. I have travelled extensively in the region, and it is quite obvious that you have not.

My hope regarding Iraq, is that the nations who have been involved in dismantling it take a foundation course in diplomacy and foreign affairs. I would also suggest that you join them before tapping your keyboards. Ignorance is never an excuse on discussion boards, it just makes you fair game.

Would you take gratification if your predictions are right or would you be gracious if things eventually turn out well for Bush's effort?

I have made no predictions, I have no idea where you reached this conclusion.

Now if you want predictions, here are some - In iraq more blood, more misery, a stooge government. In the US more republicans living in a Biblically based denial. An economy so shredded that the US will risk international impotence. While the US takes its eyes from the prize Indian and China will begin to take a lions share of exports once proudly American. Bush will die a rich man, at home surrounded by his family, pastors by the 144,000 wailing at his side, Bibles holding up his bed, never once having felt the terror that the kids he is willing to sacrifice so easily in Iraq have felt. Most dismal of all, he will die not understanding the first thing about the thinking of people outside of the boundaries of the US. Well, the Lord is with him after all, why does he need to read any book, apart from the Bible of course.

HS

frenchbabyface

Bush had/have/won't have no faillure (ask him) he is just a MF (ask him)

Spartacus

hillary_step said:

The average Middle Eastern inhabitant has not experience of democracy, in fact many view it as an evil, an assault on their faith. I have travelled extensively in the region, and it is quite obvious that you have not.

Your ignorace shows too because you assume what the majority of Iraqi's want? How arrogant of you. If you traveled that part of the world it seems you did not learn much from it because surveys of the Iraqi people and blogs I read from that area shows their is a great hope for democracy most do not want Islamic rule or ruled by a despote either. Both of the leading Shiite and the Kurds leaders in Iraq said they do not desire a mullah ruled Iraq like Iran but want a more of a self styled democracy. And both say they will not be sucked into a civil war, they live in it you don't so who should I believe, you? LOL paaaaLeeez get off your puffed up view of yourself. It is you that made youself a target, not me. You assume that you sound intelligent but you sound like you are full of hatred and emotion.

I don't believe for one moment that you been in the area because what you say don't jibe. So go ahead and whine and bitch about how awful things are, that there is no hope, that the world is coming to an end because of the evil of Bush. Grow up, work and hope for the success of this mess the West, not just the United States, have made. There comes a time to whine and bitch but that water is already under the bridge, it's time to make things work out despite what has happened.

hillary_step

Spartacus,

Your rebuttal post is not worthy of a retort as the majority of it is a perfectly displayed exercise in historical and political ignorance. Go and educate yourself and *then* come back and discuss the subject when you at least understand its political foundations.

I don't believe for one moment that you been in the area because what you say don't jibe.

This is a free Board and you are entitled to insinuate that I am a liar, just as I am entitled to suggest that walking around with your stupidity hanging out is no substitute for sound reasoning.

I have travelled extensively throughout this area, I suspect when you were still a baby cricket.

HS

Spartacus

Good for you, good bye. I still don't believe you. ta ta...

Bush failure or stable Iraq?

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