Cross or torture stake.....

by snakeizz 45 Replies latest jw friends

  • twolips

    Thanks Narkissos

    Interesting that it wasnt used in french translation.

    I just remember reading about Vlad the Impaler, the historical figure used for the DRacula story. They had old woodcut prints showing people impaled. Very terrible .

  • AlanF

    Another thing that might have prompted Rutherford to demonize the cross was that it was a traditional symbol of Christianity and the various Christian religions, and the Society at that time was making a huge noise about JWs not being part of "religion", which was by definition "false worship". The JW religion was "worship", which by definition meant "true worship", since "false worship" was "religion". So to further distinguish JWs from "religion", Rutherford decided that they would not even believe that this horrible "symbol of false worship" had anything to do with Christ.


  • freedom96

    The WTS just HAS to be different on nearly every issue.

  • Narkissos

    Triple A,

    In Numbers 21 the Hebrew word is nes which usually means "banner, signal, standard, ensign." The LXX uses the Greek semeion, "sign". And in 2 Kings 18:4 it doesn't say that the "copper serpent" (nechash ha-nechosheth) called Nechushtan (double pun) was upon the 'asherah. Besides those several "pillars" (ma├žeboth) were destroyed as still distinct objects.

    What those Biblical texts really show is that there was a serpent worship in Judah, which is etiologically ascribed to Moses. Only extra-biblical evidence can fully establish the connection between it and the equally attested Asherah worship.

  • Gretchen956

    We Christians neither want nor worship crosses as the pagans do.

    - Minucius Felix (Christian author, circa 200 A.D.)

    Christianity is merely paganism with a more successful advertising campaign.

    - E.T.B.

    Early Crosses:
    the ankh - Egypt
    India, Syria, and Persia all used the cross symbol centuries before Christ, in fact some of them date to the Stone Age and before

    The Callanish Standing Stones are situated on the Isle of Lewis, Scotland. These stones are arranged in the shape of a cross, yet they were erected about 2000 BCE, i.e. well before christianity.

    "That which is now called the Christian cross was originally no Christian emblem at all, but was the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans and Egyptians -- the true original form of the letter T -- the initial of the name of Tammuz [...] That mystic Tau was marked in baptism on the foreheads of those initiated in the Mysteries, and was used in every variety of way as a most sacred symbol. [...] The Vestal virgins of Pagan Rome wore it suspended from their necklaces, as the nuns do now. The Egyptians did the same [...] There is hardly a Pagan tribe where the cross has not been found. The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts long before the incarnation and death of Christ."
    ("The Two Babylons", by Alexander Hislop, pages 197-199)

    The objection to the cross is usually summarized in the following words: "My Lord and Savior was not crucified on a ?cross,? the symbol of a pagan deity." The problem with this reasoning is that a stake or upright pole, such as an obelisk, was also used as a symbol in pagan religions. That means, no matter on what instrument Jesus was crucified?cross or stake?it could be said that it was used as a pagan symbol. Prior pagan usage of the cross symbolism, then, cannot be the deciding factor regarding what instrument was used in Jesus? crucifixion. Paul Kroll Copyright 1999 Worldwide Church of God

  • 3rdEye

    Didn't early copies of The Watchtower have the cross on them?

  • TresHappy

    It didn't matter to me if Jesus died on a cross or a torture stake until the JW's made something out of it. It is well documented that the Romans crucified people on a cross and put their bodies to rot along the Appian Way, and I believe Christ was killed in the same manner.

    (cross that is)

  • Kenneson


    You're correct. The Cross and Crown were cherished by early Bible Students. Many even wore a pin with this emblem. And early Watchtower magazines never condemned the Cross.

    To know how Charles Taze Russell and other Bible Students felt about the Cross go to where you can find early Watchtower articles from 1879 until 1916. Conduct a search for Cross and you will come up with 250 documents. Just as a sample look up the Feb. 1880 issue, page 4 "The Cross of Christ." Also note the Cross and Crown motif on that site. It was the second president of the Watchtower Society, Judge J.F. Rutherford, who came up with the "newlight" that connected the Cross to paganism.

  • Triple A
    Triple A
    Why couldn't God tell Moses to make an Asherah pole?

    God can do anything that He wants to. But in Numbers Moses was doing what God told him to do and there was no reference to worship and/or the Asherah Pole. 2 Kings 18 deals with corrupted worship and how the people, not Moses, put the snake on the Asherah Pole.

    The Life Application Bible that I use says this about 2 Kings 18:4. The bronze snake had been made to cure the Israelites of the bit of venoumous snakes (Numbers 21:4-9). It demonstrated God's presence and power and reminded the people of his mercy and forgiveness. But it had become an object of worship instead of a reminder of whom to worship, so Hezekiah was forced to destroy it. We must be careful that aids to our worship don't become objects of worship themselves. Most objects are not made to be idols - they become idols by the way people use them.

    Although 2 Kings discribes what happened in the Isrealites worship it does not relate to what John was talking about in John 3:14-16. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. [ e ]
    16 ?For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [ f ] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.The connection with 2 Kings 18 is not a valid relationship.

    The reference in John is belief and the reference in Numbers is belief. The reference in 2 Kings is corrupted worship. 2 Kings is not related to the context of John 3. To tie 2 Kings to what John was talking about is not a correct textual relationship.

  • Triple A
    Triple A

    IMO the discussion of Cross or Stake is exactly what Rutherford and those that followed wanted. The debate pulls us away from what really took place on the tree (is that politically correct or what). Jesus died as a substitute for you and me. He was resurrected so that we could share in ever lasting life. That is what is truely important.

    But I must admit, that I love the theological debate. It does stimulate ones thinking.

Share this