Cross or torture stake.....

by snakeizz 45 Replies latest jw friends

  • Gretchen956
    Gretchen956

    One good reason that the WT demonized the cross was/is the fact that it was a pagan symbol LONG before it was theirs. Just like pretty much everything else. You can find crosses from many many cultures in Old Testament times, and it can be found even in pre-Biblical cultures. I'm sure the Romans weren't using that formation as a means of execution out of any respect for religious symbology, but out of expediency or efficiency in putting these people to death in this very public humiliating way.

    As for wearing it as an object of devotion I won't wear a cross in any form just because it has become so ingrained in people's heads that if you wear a cross you are christian. Like everything else the prior many score thousands of years are forgotten.

    Sherry

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    The Watchtower prefers to continually strain out the gnat and swallow the camel. On the one hand they studiously exclude all self-proclaimed worldly impurities hoping to attain righteousness but then they leave the inside of their congregational cup filthy. They proclaim "Stake Not Cross!" while at the same time allowing child molestors among them to continue on their sick path. Jesus would have condemned the Governing Body as hypocrites and liars and defamers of God!

    As for cross or torture stake, I really don't think it's that important. The Christ died whether it was a cross or stake he died.

    Sabrina

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    ``Anybody know why they chose to go with the stake idea? Just to be different?"

    Bingo! Among the few things JWs excel at is naysaying in a bid for attention; thus: ``we believe the Bible to be inerrant but don't call us `fundamentalists!;' ``we oppose war but don't call us `pacificists!;" ``we sure as hell ain't Catholics, but please don't call us Protestants!;" `` and please, whatever you do, please, please don't list our Kingdom Halls in your Yellow Pages as `churches' or in your newspapers under `Religious Services."

    It would make be far more intellectually honest of them to take the position that whatever instrument of death was used -- and it may well have been a cross -- that it's offensive to make that instrument into an object of veneration, or idolatry; but the evidence presented here by Leolaia suggests they would much rather opt for dishonesty; their contrariness is by now a conditioned knee-jerk reflex.

  • CaptainSchmideo
    CaptainSchmideo

    As far as Christian symbology, wasn't the fish symbol used before the cross as an identifying mark of a Christian?

    I agree with the reasoning that using the cross as a symbol of veneration is wrong, but I have to agree that ignoring historical evidence that Romans used crosses and not just upright stakes is pretty silly and ignorant.

  • BONEZZ
    BONEZZ

    It seems that the historical record got all screwed up. The absolute facts are, the Last Supper was held at an early version of a Black Angus restaurant where Jesus ordered a steak and wound up with a very tough one......it was real torture eating it...hence "torture" steak. He became very "cross" with the waiter and well, the rest is history. Those damn historians can't get anything correct!

    -BONEZZ

  • Triple A
    Triple A
    One good reason that the WT demonized the cross was/is the fact that it was a pagan symbol LONG before it was theirs. Just like pretty much everything else. You can find crosses from many many cultures in Old Testament times, and it can be found even in pre-Biblical cultures. I'm sure the Romans weren't using that formation as a means of execution out of any respect for religious symbology, but out of expediency or efficiency in putting these people to death in this very public humiliating way.

    The Bible sayes to tear down the "Asherah Pole" mentioned 14 times. Making the pole or stake which the Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 page 1116 says, "In classical Greek the word (stau ros') rendered "torture stake" in the New World Translation primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam." So with your logic than the stake is equally a pagan symbol and should not be used either.

    1. Deuteronomy 16:21
      [ Worshiping Other Gods ] Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole [ Or Do not plant any tree dedicated to Asherah ] beside the altar you build to the LORD your God,
      Deuteronomy 16:20-22 (in Context) Deuteronomy 16 (Whole Chapter)
    2. Judges 6:25
      That same night the LORD said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old. [ Or Take a full-grown, mature bull from your father's herd ] Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole [ That is, a symbol of the goddess Asherah; here and elsewhere in Judges ] beside it.
      Judges 6:24-26 (in Context) Judges 6 (Whole Chapter)
    3. Judges 6:26
      Then build a proper kind of [ Or build with layers of stone an ] altar to the LORD your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second [ Or full-grown ; also in verse 28 ] bull as a burnt offering."
      Judges 6:25-27 (in Context) Judges 6 (Whole Chapter)
    4. Judges 6:28
      In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!
      Judges 6:27-29 (in Context) Judges 6 (Whole Chapter)
    5. Judges 6:30
      The men of the town demanded of Joash, "Bring out your son. He must die, because he has broken down Baal's altar and cut down the Asherah pole beside it."
      Judges 6:29-31 (in Context) Judges 6 (Whole Chapter)
    6. 1 Kings 15:13
      He even deposed his grandmother Maacah from her position as queen mother, because she had made a repulsive Asherah pole. Asa cut the pole down and burned it in the Kidron Valley.
      1 Kings 15:12-14 (in Context) 1 Kings 15 (Whole Chapter)
    7. 1 Kings 16:33
      Ahab also made an Asherah pole and did more to provoke the LORD , the God of Israel, to anger than did all the kings of Israel before him.
      1 Kings 16:32-34 (in Context) 1 Kings 16 (Whole Chapter)
    8. 2 Kings 13:6
      But they did not turn away from the sins of the house of Jeroboam, which he had caused Israel to commit; they continued in them. Also, the Asherah pole [ That is, a symbol of the goddess Asherah; here and elsewhere in 2 Kings ] remained standing in Samaria.
      2 Kings 13:5-7 (in Context) 2 Kings 13 (Whole Chapter)
    9. 2 Kings 17:16
      They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal.
      2 Kings 17:15-17 (in Context) 2 Kings 17 (Whole Chapter)
    10. 2 Kings 21:3
      He rebuilt the high places his father Hezekiah had destroyed; he also erected altars to Baal and made an Asherah pole, as Ahab king of Israel had done. He bowed down to all the starry hosts and worshiped them.
      2 Kings 21:2-4 (in Context) 2 Kings 21 (Whole Chapter)
    11. 2 Kings 21:7
      He took the carved Asherah pole he had made and put it in the temple, of which the LORD had said to David and to his son Solomon, "In this temple and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, I will put my Name forever.
      2 Kings 21:6-8 (in Context) 2 Kings 21 (Whole Chapter)
    12. 2 Kings 23:6
      He took the Asherah pole from the temple of the LORD to the Kidron Valley outside Jerusalem and burned it there. He ground it to powder and scattered the dust over the graves of the common people.
      2 Kings 23:5-7 (in Context) 2 Kings 23 (Whole Chapter)
    13. 2 Kings 23:15
      Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin-even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also.
      2 Kings 23:14-16 (in Context) 2 Kings 23 (Whole Chapter)
    14. 2 Chronicles 15:16
      King Asa also deposed his grandmother Maacah from her position as queen mother, because she had made a repulsive Asherah pole. Asa cut the pole down, broke it up and burned it in the Kidron Valley.
      2 Chronicles 15:15-17 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 15 (Whole Chapter)

    These were taken from the NIV and the links will take you to the verses on Biblegateway.com.

    If the stake is so correct and the cross is so wrong, why does the WTS have to misinterpet those that say that Jesus died on a cross? Why can they not find enough support for the stake and just present that information?

    Also when Jesus selected the WTS as the only true relegion, they taught that Jesus was crucified on a cross and Rutherford had the following to say in The Harp of God:

    "And Pilate, more righteous than the clerics, posted over his cross the sign: 'Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.'" (page 136)

    "When Jesus died upon the cross of

    "The ransom price was provided at the cross. The cross of Christ is the great pivotal truth of the divine arrangement, from which radiates the hopes of men." (page 142)

    "In the cross of Christ I glory,
    Tow'ring o'er the wrecks of time;
    All the light of sacred story
    Gathers round its head sublime."
    (poem quoted on page 143)

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Already in the NT, the cross as an execution instrument had defining power (such as Paul's gospel of the cross) for the faith, but the shape itself became a focus of attention in the early apostolic fathers and church fathers (second century AD) who believed that the cross was prophesied in scriptural references that evoke its shape. The earliest attested devotional use of this shape (in making a sign of the cross by outstretching one's arms to one's side) occurred in the late first century AD Odes of Solomon (an early Christian hymnal that likely belonged to the same Syrian community where the Gospel of John first became popular). The ikhthus (fish) symbol is from what I know from a slightly later period.

    I too agree that it doesn't matter what Jesus died on, what is important here is that this is yet another example of how the WTS sticks to wrong position and bends whatever facts it has to support that position.

  • Triple A
    Triple A

    IMO It does not matter if Christ died on a stake or a cross. What matters is that he died for our sins and was resurrected so that we ALL can have ever lasting life.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    What is interesting, Triple A, is that the Asherah pole bearing the bronze serpent is itself regarded in John 3:14-16 as a prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion -- raising Jesus up on the cross "just as Moses lifted up the snake", without having any problem with the idolatrous implications of this object (2 Kings 18:4).

  • Triple A
    Triple A

    Moses was told to put a snake on a pole, note that Asherah is not used here: Numbers 21:8-9 8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived. (NIV).

    2 Kings 18:4 does say that Moses put it on the Asherah Pole. The context here is the distruction of the corruption that the Isrealites had allow to enter there worship: 2 Kings 18:1-4 1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother's name was Abijah [a] daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD , just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called [b] Nehushtan. [c] )

    1. 2 Kings 18:4 Or He called it
    2. 2 Kings 18:4 Nehushtan sounds like the Hebrew for bronze and snake and unclean thing.

    So I can not agree that John pointed to the Asherah Pole as prophecy of Jesus' death. A pole yes, the Asherah Pole no.

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