by coldfish 290 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Ps, it seems to me that the christian message, by it's nature, is insulting to nonchristians. It is that faithless nonchristians are sinners/condemned. The christian is, by the grace of god, saved from that because of his/her faith. Who would not infer from this that the christian therefore assumes a better/superior grade than nonbelievers? I know there are christians who are exceptions to this, as there are an infinite number of christian belief variations.
S
a Christian,
I've followed this discussion and there is one thing I would like to tell you, thank you. You've given me some food for thought on Genesis and I truly appreciate it. But you have done something else which I appreciate even more. You have calmly and patiently defended your faith in the face of ridicule and falacious accusations. A Christian you certainly are, brother. This is not going unnoticed. Thank you.
Gumby,
Paul said to Peter...."Get behind me Satan". Did Peter complain he was attacked by Paul, or did he realise Paul was expressing his dislike of Peters ideas?
Paul did not tell Peter, "Get behind me Satan" that was Jesus who said that.
Sabrina
Hello again a christian
Among other things you said:
"Myself, I've taken enough abuse to last me for quite a while.
Mike"
I am sorry that you think that a discussion like this is abuse. I think it has been quite civil,
actually. If you really do think that you have the answer to why we should all belive in the Bible
as the "Word of God" you should really tell us why, simply give us good solid evidence for
why we all should subscribe to your view. So far you haven't even been close. Alan has tried to
reason with you in a rather simple and detailed way and showed you how some of the things you claim
don't make any sense whatsoever.
You see, this is why it is such an unforgiving task trying to make sense of something that doesn't
really make any sense to begin with. The "ransome sacrifice" is but one of many.
The God of the Bible isn't at all a nice, just or merciful entity. He is behind genocide, ethic
cleansing and every indecency under the sun. If you are such a keen student of the Bible you already
know that.
You seem like a nice and gentle soul and I do commend you for not "waxing wroth" on us condemning
us all for not agreeing with you. I for one would dearly love to belive, for someone to come along
with real arguments, to really explain it all so we could all understand and be united with a good and
benevolent God, not this bad tempered homicidal maniac the Bible tell us about.
But so far you haven't come up with one single argument that has been the least bit convincing.
We have heard most of it before, many times. I don't know what it is but nothing Bible apologists
say seems to have much serious crtical thinking behind it, it usually boild down to the same cirtcular
arguments. Like, "the Bible is the Word of God! How do you know? The Bible say so." Then something
like, "the Bible is right. How? The Bible say so."
It is really sad but in my experince the kind of "faith" demanded by various religions doesn't
seem to coexist very well with any kind of thinking, the two are like oil and water, they don't mix.
In order to stay a "believer" one has to abandon real critical thinking, as it is simply lethal to
faith.
Norm
Gumby,
Thanks for the "Merry Christmas". And a "Happy New Year" to you!
You wrote: The problem with my above statement is god did not spare the millions who worshipped other gods in Israel's time period. Those who worshipped Baal or any other god were killed because of not worshipping the true god. Do you feel these ones knew more about the true god than third world country people know today of christ? They must have in your opinion, because the Lord will spare the ignorant according to your theory. Why did god kill the ignorant in times past. Did all those in Noah's time REALLY know the true god by the preaching of one man?
To begin with, I do not believe that the Bible teaches that God will, at Christ's return, destroy everyone on earth except true Christians. I believe that when Christ returns He will judge only the Christian world. Two-thirds of the earth's population has never even heard the good news of Jesus Christ, including billions of people in lands like China and India. Many believe that God will soon kill all of these people. I think they are wrong. This does not sound like the God of love, justice and mercy I worship.
One thing that leads me to believe this is an incorrect understanding of Scripture is that the Bible tells us that "Judgment begins with the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17) Jesus also said those who will rule as kings with Him will "judge the 12 tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:30) To me this indicates that when Christ returns and draws all true Christians to Himself (Matt. 24:31), they will then determine who among those who have heard the good news of Jesus Christ and not taken it to heart are deserving of death. "The 12 tribes of Israel," spoken of in Luke 22:30, I believe refers to all those who have been closely associated with the Christ's body of believers, which the Bible calls "the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:16) Remember, the literal "12 tribes of Israel" had all heard the Law of Moses, but few had taken it to heart.
Remember too that it was only the Jewish world which had rejected Jesus as their Messiah that was punished by God at the hands of Roman armies in the latter part of the first century, not the entire Roman empire. Also to be considered is a fact known by most serious students of the Bible, history and science, and discussed earlier in this thread. The flood of Noah's day was a local event, not a global one. God brought that judgment only upon a land that had heard the message of "Noah, a preacher of righteousness," and failed to respond to it. (2 Pet. 2:5) God did not take the lives of those in other parts of then widely populated earth who had not heard Noah's preaching.
Interestingly, Revelation chapters 8 and 9 talk quite a bit about "a third of the world" being judged. And by population, the part of the world claiming Christianity as its religion is almost exactly one-third.
If my understanding is correct, that Christ is returning to judge only the Christian world, Christians will then have plenty of people to rule over as they serve as kings with Christ for 1,000 years. And they will also then have plenty of people to help come to know the true God as they serve as His "priests." For that is, after all, what priests do.
But what about those executed by God in ancient times, you ask? When God destroyed Baal worshippers, the people in Sodom and Gomorrah and the people in the land of Noah, He did not really "destroy" them. In effect, He merely transported them to a future time. For Jesus said that, "A time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out?those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." (John 5:28,29) And, from what Jesus said about the men of Sodom and Gomorrah receiving a more merciful judgment on Judgement Day than many of those He preached to, we know that "all" in this case does indeed mean all.(Matt. 10:15; 11:23)
The way I understand the Scriptures, mankind's final Judgment Day will come at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign. If all of those in Noah's day were not really able to come to know the true God by the preaching of one man, and I doubt they were, then I trust God will take that into account when He renders their final judgment.
it seems to me that the christian message, by it's nature, is insulting to nonchristians. It is that faithless nonchristians are sinners/condemned. The christian is, by the grace of god, saved from that because of his/her faith. Who would not infer from this that the christian therefore assumes a better/superior grade than nonbelievers?
Imo this needs not be. As far as Pauline Christianity is concerned (as this description suggests), the very concept of grace (or "undeserved kindness," à la NWT) implies that the "elect" are personally unworthy of their "election". Moreover, it can be argued that the Pauline theology uses those concepts in a dialectical way within a ultimately universalistic perspective, as the climax of Romans (11:32) indicates:
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
The Christian faith only becomes insulting when it is mistaken as a "work of salvation" -- for instance, implying that unbelievers do not believe for selfish motives.
Sabrina,
Thank you very much for the kind words.
Mike
Norm,
You wrote: Nothing Bible apologists say seems to have much serious critical thinking behind it, it usually boils down to the same circular
arguments. Like, "the Bible is the Word of God! How do you know? The Bible says so."
My belief that the Creator of our universe inspired the writing of the Bible is certainly not based on such a foolish argument. All believers I know have a faith that is built on what they consider to be strong evidence. For some, like myself, that evidence came to them as a result of long personal studies of both science and the Scriptures which convinced them that the Bible is inspired by God. Others have become convinced of that fact as a result of personal "miraculous experiences." Others' faith has been validated as a result of what they see as answered prayers or as God working in their lives. In any case, the faith of most Christians has resulted from what they see as strong evidence, not from circular arguments. Now, most likely if they were to discuss that "evidence" with you, you would not find it as convincing as they have. But I believe God gave each of them all the help they needed to firmly establish their faith in Him. He gave me what I needed. And I needed a lot. I hope someday He will give you all the evidence you need to put your faith in Him. But I don't believe the evidence God gives to most of us is "recyclable." For every child whom God adopts He adopts personally. That being the case, I doubt you will ever find all the evidence you need to put your faith in the God of the Bible on an Internet discussion board. However, maybe some here will plant some seeds in your heart and mind which God will later cause to grow.
You wrote:In order to stay a "believer" one has to abandon real critical thinking, as it is simply lethal to faith.
The only "critical thinking" I have abandoned is the kind which is all too commonly displayed on this board. That is the kind of "critical thinking" which criticizes virtually every thought expressed by someone who expresses a belief in the God of the Bible.
Just my two cents, Christian:
Many people here have lost faith in the bible after deep research. Others have researched and believe the bible even more. To each, his own.
I believe most people here don't take it on a personal basis. They may disagree concerning ideas, but everyone is welcome and treated with respect.
I, for one, wish I could reconcile bible with science... but I can't. If I could, I'd gladly take the chance to do so. But wishful thinking will get me nowhere.
So, when people ask for reasons to believe in the bible, they may be doing so with a genuine heart. But it will take solid reasons to make them believe. Otherwise, nothing done.
As Carl Sagan once said: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
So, don't be sad! This was a very good thread!
Melmac,
You wrote: I, for one, wish I could reconcile bible with science... but I can't. If I could, I'd gladly take the chance to do so.
I am sure there are many things which you have as yet in your life been unable to do. That does not mean they cannot be done. I'm curious. What parts of the Bible do you think cannot be reconciled with science?
I don't believe the evidence God gives to most of us is "recyclable."
