Sabrina said:
:: You in fact are angry with me because I proved that, despite your objections, you have no choice but to agree with Norm and me that Christianity is intolerant.
: Correcting your assumptions, wrong conclusions and absurd statements:
I think not.
: #1 - I am not angry with you.
Well ya sure fooled me! Wasn't it you who said the following?
Uh, excuse me but Simon I think does not allow the language that I believe your statement deserves. So I will improvise...AlanF, when you use the words WE and ALL be certain whom you are addressing otherwise what you say may be regarded by some as, to put it very politely, Bull Shit!
Uhh.... yeah, whatever AlanF. Hey if like Norm you require people to kiss up and say you're right I'm cool with that.....Hey AlanF, you got a point there wow what a splendid rebuttal and so coherent too! Thanks man, nobody like you ever!
As I have repeatedly said ad nauseam it is not criticism that rankles but ridicule. My god what a wall! Oh...sorry, Norm's posting style rubs off easily.
Yep, I see your point. If one is going to mow over some it is only proper that he mow over everyone. True logic there. Have to commend you!
AlanF, you believe in your own religion, the religion of your own opinion. And since you believe that when it comes to Christanity and other belief systems your opinion is the only right one then that means that by your own definition you yourself are intolerant.
But hey, no big deal. I've become intolerant myself. I've become intolerant of people who actually believe they are superior to others and who believe they alone know truth and the only truth. I've become intolerant of you and Norm.
Those word are dripping with anger. They're also proof that you know you've been painted into a corner, and like any cornered thing, lash out wildly in anger.
If you weren't so angry, you'd simply answer the questions posed. To date, you haven't answered a single question or specific challenge from me. Instead you've responded with pure ad hominems such as the above.
: Are you some kind of nut?
Some think so. I do too, on occasion. Largely for taking the time to try to reason with folks like you.
: I disagree with you and don't like the way you have tried to manipulate what's been said.
I've not manipulated anything. I've simply pointed out the logical consequences of your position. The fact that you refuse to see any problems with your position is, well, diagnostic of the Christian mindset.
: But I am not angry with you. Unless of course in your mind to disagree with you is be angry with you!
Not at all! In fact, I've learned from folks like Norm that spirited disagreement often builds strong relationships.
: Forget the movie etc. some professional counseling would be time well spent on your part.
Those with no real arguments always resort to ad hominems.
: #2 - Has someone taught you that if you say something over and over others will believe it's true?
Sure -- the JWs are a good example.
: Well, sorry to say, that does not work with everyone. No, you and Norm have not proven that I agree with you both that Christianity is intolerant.
No, we haven't quite proved that you willingly agree, but we've proved that if you don't agree, you have no choice but to disagree with the Bible, and it's a foregone conclusion that you won't disagree with the Bible. So, like it or not, you have no logical choice but to agree. But you must understand: up to this point we've been supposing that we've been talking to a normally logical person. You're making us rethink this.
: You both know perfectly well the exact opposite is the truth and despite my repeated statements to that fact you continue to, to use your terminology, put forth the same clap-trap either saying I agree with you or that I have no choice but to agree.
You're beginning to sound like the Black Knight in the movie Monty Python and the Holy Grail. In case you don't know the reference, the Black Knight was soundly defeated in a one-on-one battle, having his arms and legs chopped off. Still he challenged his conqueror, hollering "Come back and fight like a man!"
:: If you disagree with us, you automatically disagree with the Bible.
: #3 - Who said that if I disagree with you I automatically disagree with the Bible?
On the point of discussion here, there are two and only two alternatives: (1) the Bible contains statements that prove that Christianity is inherently intolerant; (2) the Bible contains no such statements. Since I've shown that #1 is correct, your only choice is to agree with #1 -- despite the fact that you don't want to. If you agree with #2, you disagree with the facts, and Lord knows, you'd never do that.
: Are you the Pope?
No, my title is Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. I'm more powerful than the Pope.
: Oh I see, you and Norm are now the GB here and to disagree with your biblical opinions is to disagree with the Bible. Okay I get it. lol
More of that Christian logic at work, I see.
:: If you agree with us, your Christian ego is deflated. The resulting cognitive dissonance causes you to misdirect your anger.
: #4 - Now this is the funniest thing you've said so far.
I doubt that.
: You and Norm have falsely claimed I agree with you and continue to do so without apology.
Repetition for emphasis? You yourself pointed out that repeating something ad nauseum doesn't make it true.
: I have admitted to making a mistake and you say I am the one with the ego?
To a little one, perhaps, but certainly not to the very big one we're discussing here.
: Tell me, when you and Norm get your heads together how many rooms in your house do they fill?
Well, we just put our heads together in a mayonnaise jar. Does that give you a clue?
:: As for not reading the rest of my post, you've personally demonstrated yet another characteristic of many Christians: a tendency to stick fingers in ears and shout "LA LA LA LA LA LA!" until the irrititating thought goes away.
: $5 - No actually, what that means is that I will not put up with arrogance and false claims of what I myself believe.
No one believes you, Sabrina.
Oh, you disagree? Ok let's give it a try!
Does any reader agree with Sabrina on point #5?
: When you can post in an adult manner, without arrogance and falsehoods, I will read your entire post and answer to the best of my ability.
I've already posted plenty of material in an adult manner. But your infantile evasions preclude talking to you like an adult.
Oops, I guess you won't read the rest of my post. Yep, fingers in the ears and "LA LA LA LA LA" yet again.
: But don't expect me to play the target for the little games you enjoy playing. Post in an adult manner and I will respond in an adult manner.
You've already demonstrated an incapacity to carry on adult conversations by your evasions.
: With arrogance dripping from your posts, you and Norm misrepresent what I have said then you have the audacity to say that I am sticking my fingers in my ears becasue I object to reading it! No, AlanF, I have no fingers in my ears I am simply directing your effluent to where it belongs.
Again, no one believes you.
: You and Norm have ignored the scriptures I used to show that Jesus does and will show love to all good people regardless of their religion
Nonsense. The only scripture you posted -- in a post to Norm, not to me -- was the difficult-to-interpret parable of Matthew 25:31. But your exposition ignored the fact that it contradicts a host of much clearer scriptures that directly state that God will kill all those who do not know him, and so forth. So your exposition simply does what so many other apologetic expositions do -- it selects only the scriptural notions that support what you want to believe, and does not account for everything that the Bible says. As is sometimes said, such is eisegesis, not exegesis. This is typical of Jehovah's Witnesses, Evangelicals, Mormons, Moonies, etc.
: because that is not what you want to hear and it's not what you want to talk about.
Until you can come to grips with the fact that your exposition of Matthew 25:31 contradicts a bunch of other scriptures, you'll hold this silly position. I have repeatedly asked you -- tried to cajol you, even -- to deal with the scriptures I presented. The fact that you still refuse proves that you're not interested in what the Bible says, but like a Christian, in coming up with excuses to continue to believe your own made-up version of Christianity.
: You both want to talk about your obsessive compulsions to be proven right and if that means ignoring what others say that's just peachy with you both.
Our posts have nothing to do with wanting to be proven right. We already know that our position is irrefutable, so we have nothing to prove. Our goal at this point is to show you (and of course, interested readers) that your claims are fluff.
: When you are willing to discuss the Sheep and the Goats illustration of Matthew 25 (without arrogance) I will be willing also.
You've already had plenty of opportunity to show why you think this doesn't contradict the pile of scriptures I already presented. Why should I think you're sincere?
I've already demonstrated a willingness to talk about the scriptures, and certainly without arrogance of any sort. Go back and reread the sequence of posts and you'll be forced to admit this. Look at my post on page 6 of this thread concerning scriptural proofs of Christian intolerance, then go back and see if you can point out any trace of arrogance on my part toward you prior to it. If you can't, then you'll have been demonstrated to be a liar, or at best, irrational. But I already know that you'll never admit anything of the sort, because then you'd have to change your mind.
: But I don't think you ever will be, will you?!!
Try it out. Put your money where your mouth is.
Trouble is, you've already left yourself an out by setting a standard that you and only you can judge -- anything you judge is arrogance is by definition arrogance, and off you'll run.
: Because that illustration shows that Jesus calls those who do good things, righteous, and rewards them though they are not his religious brothers.
Aha! A miniature test of your resolve!
Reconcile your exposition with this scripture, which states in no uncertain terms that God "will come with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don't know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; NLT)
If you can't reconcile, then my point stands.
: I went to some length with Norm on all this but he did not address this at all.
You must take this up with Norm. I am not his keeper.
: No, he just kept on saying the same thing over and over and never addressed those scriptures.
I'd venture to say that it's because he already knows what the Bible really says, and simply addressed your claim with that knowledge.
: Then you and he say I have agreed with you both, that I agree that Christianity is intolerant because it claims to be the only true religion etc. What a sad lot you both are.
No, we merely usually assume that people act consistently. Obviously, that assumption doesn't always hold.
: You claim to see but when I point to a scripture you look away from it.
I haven't done so. This is a false accusation.
: Yet, AlanF you yourself complained that no one addressed your list of scriptures claiming that was a typical Christian thing to do.
Once again, why have you refused to do so? Why have no Christian apologists done so?
: Now, since you and Norm have ignored my points and my scriptures I will follow your lead: I too claim that your actions are typical of atheist/agnostic apologists and should be viewed as your inability to deal with the truth when presented to you. It works both ways.
Well, now that I've shown that your exposition of your one scripture (Matt. 25:31) -- not "scriptures" -- contradicts plenty of other scriptures (such as 2 Thess. 1:7-9), what are you going to do? Make further excuses as to why you won't answer? I wouldn't make any bets on you.
: You say Christians evade, well my friends, you both have done a great heap of evading on this thread and an even greater heap of false claims.
Bullshit. I've proved everything I've said. Norm can speak for himself.
: When you want to discuss Matthew 25:31 PM me and I will join in.
We will see.
: Until then....continue ranting away with the same rubbish, evading my scriptural arguments,
LOL!
: and making up false claims about my stand on Christianity's intolerance.
LOLOLOL!
AlanF
