The Global Flood

by coldfish 290 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • LDH
    LDH

    Norm,

    Cheers! You asked:

    As of the question of beheading the 14 year old I think the correct Biblical procedure would be to venture down to the city gates and have a quick chat with the elders, they would probably go for a simple stoning, as if you remember this was the loving way God had ordained in dealing with difficult teens back in those good old days.

    I'm thinking, no. Having not had the chance to review such Biblical wisdom as can be found in the Your Youth! Getting the Best out of It! publications--she doesn't yet know that totally normal behavior can be twisted and perverted by the local "Elder Body" under the direction of the BORG.

    I think I will wait until she has her first serious boyfriend (hasn't even had a casual one yet!). This way, she can confess whether she has engaged in such egregious violations as 'heavy petting' or even KISSING before being taken directly to the city gates.

    We wouldn't want to waste a perfectly good titillating conversation, would we?

    Lisa

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    Toreador, You asked: Why would God require us to sift through mountains of secular data to extrapolate when such and such happened? God doesn't require us to do anything of the sort. It is not necessary for us to understand exactly how many years ago various events happened, including Adam's creation and Christ's birth. History buffs find such information interesting. That's all. If God "required " us to understand exactly when various events happened in order for us to gain eternal life I'm sure He would have made sure the Bible alone contained that information. The Bible alone contains all the information we need to know in order to find salvation. However, for the reasons I have already discussed, I believe it is quite faith strengthening to discover that Jesus Christ was born in the year 4000, counting the passage of years beginning with the year of Adam's creation. However, such an understanding is certainly not in any way necessary for us to put our faith in the God of the Bible. Billions of Christians have done so for nearly 2,000 years without having such an understanding. You wrote: If you consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God, should we need other material to figure out God's dates? After All they ARE God's dates. Why shouldn't we? I don't know about you, but I need a lot of secularly trained expert help just to read God's word.Why? Because I don't read Hebrew or Greek. That means I need someone else to tell me what each and every word in the Bible means. And I have to trust that these secularly trained biblical language translation "experts" know what they are doing. I see no difference between that and my trusting a secularly trained biblical dating translation expert to tell me, in modern terms, what "the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar" means.

  • one
    one
    However, for the reasons I have already discussed, I believe it is quite faith strengthening to discover that Jesus Christ was born in the year 4000,

    Sincerely, is your conviction based on "faith" or what?, initially you stated that your beleif or conviction is based on scientifice data.

    I find that even if such "scientific" data is true it does not answer a lot of other challenging quesntion.

    Sincerely yours,

  • one
    one

    A cristian,

    Sincerely

    The sign you mention was to be seen by all nations,

    so far only a few, including you have seen such a sign,

    "'At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn."

    On the other hand jesus mentioned a a different sign, just in case you see any relationship among the two signs.

    "But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Satanus:

    You have told me that the ot god got angry and killed people because of them worshipping other gods besides himself.

    When did I say that?
    I would hold that the bible writers interpreted their spiritual experiences, dreams and circumstances (given a warlike contemporary period) and recorded them accordingly.
    I do the same...

    Some people think god is a generic higher power, who people can relate to in whatever way works for them.

    I don't see too much of a problem with that, on the face of your statement.

    If you see it that way, how can you take seriously the gods reaction to the worshipping of other gods?

    Setting aside, for a moment, any given bible writers' jealousy for his god - here's the rub (IMHO) - are they worshipping the "generic higher power" or are they actually just doing what the heck they want with no regard to any relationship to "Him"? Further, are they misleading others into a similar discombobulated existance?

    Norm:

    Indeed it is, as far as you personally are concerned. But what I asked you was what is the Biblical psosition?

    You did? When did you ask that?

    Do the Bible claim that Christendom is the only true religion or not?

    The bible doesn't say anything about Christendom. It was a later invention...
    Some of the NT books of the bible show Jesus declaring himself as "the way, the truth and the life", etc, but that's in connection with a person, not a religion. I don't see what the OT has to do with "Christendom" at all.

    By rights, the "Christian religion" should be about showing people what a "Christian" life is about, and declaring the reason (i.e. due to a relationship with Christ) when asked (see 1Pet.3:15), or in a place where spiritual discussion is expected (e.g. a place of worship).

    Why is that so hard to answer?
    It's like pulling teeth with you guys here.

    I'm sorry you feel that way. It's not too hard to answer at all. As for pulling teeth, I apologise, but I'm only just back from vacation.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    a Christian

    I was well aware that my sources had done some rounding. But I was also well aware that the men who wrote the Bible, under what I believe was God's inspiration, also often did some rounding of numbers. Some of the Hebrew kings' "40 year" rules were actually a year or two more or less than an exact 40. Some of the Bible's "70 year" prophetic periods were actually a bit more or less than an exact 70. 1 Kings 7:23 appears to tell us that Pi = 3, rather than 3.14. Many other examples could be cited of biblical "rounding" of numbers.

    You are making yourself a laughing stock. For a start, rounding Pi makes it useless, non-functional and 5% out. Your approximations with solar dimensions et. al. also make any significance illusory, useless and non-functional.

    "See! The power of god is inscribed in the very sky *gestures upward*. By divine power the moon is 402,000 times less bright than the sun!. The ratio of diameter and distance of the Earth-Moon and Moon Sun are roughly based on a multiple of 400. As we find the number 40 in the Bible, this proves there is a god!"

    So, if the same God who rounded numbers in the Bible created the universe I have no problem in believing that He would also use numbers in His design of the universe which required a bit of rounding to serve as "signs."

    And, inevitably with a flawed philosophy such as your own, you limit god's power. I don't think you realise the amazingly minute and exact tolerances we can see around us in the Universe. If you were aware of them you might be more cautious about saying 'god rounds things' in order to make your assertions easier. If god was as sloppy as you make out, it would be seen everywhere. Such 'sloppiness' can only be seen in areas that require sloppiness to fit your 'sign'.

    Just because you say it is true doesn't mean it is. Not that I expect words or reason to change your mind, you're way too far gone.

    You say I owe you an apology for calling you a liar. I don't believe I ever called you a liar. However, I evidently said something which you took that way. I'm sure I worded something I said to you poorly and in the process offended you. For that I am sorry. Please forgive me.

    Would you please try to remember what you said and what I wrote. I am annoyed as you falsely used my first post as an example of how Biblical apologists were not treated with respect on this forum (when there was absolutely NO disrespect in that post). You lied about me, you didn't call me a liar.

    So, apologise for what you did, not for something you didn't do.

    So, according to you, when a "theory" does not immediately gain wide acceptance, and instead initially meets with much skeptisism and criticism, it should be dropped "as quickly as possible." It's a good thing men like Nicolaus Copernicus and Charles Darwin didn't listen to "wise" advise like yours, which by the way they got plenty of.

    Slight problem; your theory requires making things up. Darwin could show inherited change in the fossil record. Copernicus could equally demonstrate without any doubt the Earth rotated round the sun. Copernicus and Darwin didn't make things up. They didn't round things to make the theory work.

    Your theory requires fabrication, approximation and the stretching of facts to fit. To compare your theory to Copernicus or Darwin is rank intellectual dishonesty; theirs were works of science... yours is an exercise in self-important delusion.

    I find it amazing you don't feel it necessary to defend your self-idolatry.

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Toreador,

    Both of you people could be comedians the way you banter back and forth. LOL

    Sabrina you could open and AlanF could be the headliner or the other way around.

    THANKS TOREADOR!

    I MYSELF DID FEEL A KUKLA, FRAN, & OLLIE DEJA VU.

    HAVE A GREAT DAY!

    Sabrina

  • toreador
    toreador

    You have a great day to Sabrina!

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    One, You wrote: I find that even if such "scientific" data is true it does not answer a lot of other challenging questions. Agreed. You wrote: The sign you mention was to be seen by all nations. I don't understand Christ's words to say that. Matt. 24:30 tells us: "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." (NASB) Evidently you see a cause and effect relationship between the first and second parts of this verse. You seem to feel that Jesus is saying that the first event will cause the second. However, Jesus did not say that. Three separate non-connected end time events are here referred to. You want to connect the first two. However, I believe the proper connection is between the second two. The Greek "kai? (translated as "and' three times in this verse) does not have a wide range of meanings. Greek dictionaries tell us that besides "and" it can be properly translated as ?also" or "as well as?. It is also sometimes "used like a comma to connect sentences together." However, we do well to remember that Jesus did not speak Greek. Historians tell us that He spoke either Hebrew or Aramaic. From all I have read, I believe the strongest evidence indicates He spoke Hebrew. So, His words were translated into Greek before they were translated into English. The Hebrew word for "and" (vav) has a much broader range of translation. Hebrew dictionaries tell us that besides being translated as "and", "vav" it can also be properly translated as ?but, so, as, then, because, therefore, namely, since, while?, and ?on the contrary?. Hebrew translators also say that, "Translating the vav always as 'and' can lead to a faulty interpretation of some verses." With these things in mind, I believe what Jesus actually said was, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. And then all the tribes of the earth will mourn as they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." For as I said, I believe the proper connection is between the second two parts of verse 30, not the first two parts. You wrote: On the other hand Jesus mentioned a different sign, just in case you see any relationship among the two signs. "But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." You refer to Matthew 12:39. ?A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." I see no relationship between the two signs. In Matt. 12:39 Jesus was referring to the only sign that would be given to the generation of people then living. That sign being that He would be buried in the earth for three days, much like Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days, and would then rise from His grave, much like Jonah came out of that fish. However, in Matt. 24:30 Jesus is referring to a sign that would "appear in the sky" shortly before His return. (Please don't ask me to define "shortly.") By the way, the Greek word translated in Matt. 24:30 as "appear" refers not just to what appears to the eye, but also to "what appears to the mind." Abaddon, "Self- idolatry"? Hardly. I am simply posting some of my personal understandings and opinions on an Internet discussion board, while doing the best I can to show respect for the understandings and opinions of others. And in the process sometimes learning from others. Simply because I do not immediately change one of my beliefs when I find that you disagree with it does not make me a "self-idolater" any more than you holding onto one of your beliefs after finding I disagree with it makes you one.

  • toreador
    toreador

    Hello AChristian, Toreador, :You asked: Why would God require us to sift through mountains of secular data to extrapolate when such and such happened? :God doesn't require us to do anything of the sort. It is not necessary for us to understand exactly how many years ago various events happened, including Adam's creation and Christ's birth. History buffs find such information interesting. That's all. I see your point somwhat. I see that you find history interesting and entertaining. Myself I couldn't stand history in school. It was my worst subject. For those of us, like myself, who finds history boring we wouldn't find as much to put faith in if we didnt do all that extra digging. :If God "required " us to understand exactly when various events happened in order for us to gain eternal life I'm sure He would have made sure the Bible alone contained that information. The Bible alone contains all the information we need to know in order to find salvation. This is what I still find puzzling. I have looked into the bible a fair amount, read a bit on talk origins.com, read some on the skeptics annotated bible and instead have found the bible to come up wanting as far satisfying my hope in salvation of any kind. This is not what I wanted to come up with either. Its not that I dont want to believe in God for I do. :However, for the reasons I have already discussed, I believe it is quite faith strengthening to discover that Jesus Christ was born in the year 4000, counting the passage of years beginning with the year of Adam's creation. However, such an understanding is certainly not in any way necessary for us to put our faith in the God of the Bible. Billions of Christians have done so for nearly 2,000 years without having such an understanding. Toreador wrote: If you consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God, should we need other material to figure out God's dates? After All they ARE God's dates. :Why shouldn't we? I don't know about you, but I need a lot of secularly trained expert help just to read God's word.Why? Because I don't read Hebrew or Greek. That means I need someone else to tell me what each and every word in the Bible means. That is what I am talking about. We need to depend on someone 'else' to tell us and that someone 'else' always seems to have a preconcieved/biased view so puts his spin on it. It therefore makes it impossible to understand what was originally intended. : And I have to trust that these secularly trained biblical language translation "experts" know what they are doing. More often than not, they 'dont' know what they are doing. : I see no difference between that and my trusting a secularly trained biblical dating translation expert to tell me, in modern terms, what "the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar" means. The whole problem is that these interpretaions can be wrong for our whole lifetime and many more years before realizing these professional interpreters realize they were wrong. People can spend their whole lives believing in a fantasy. Look at C. T. Russel as an example of just one of many who was big into date setting and date interpretation. His clap trap (new word for me) , is still destroying peoples lives to this day. I believed it, so did many others and many still do. If God 'really' wanted us 'all' to gain salvation, he has, IMO, a very messy way of getting his message across. The record does not paint a very favorable picture of a God of order. Don't get me wrong, I want to live on as much as the next guy, but after much reading and contemplation the odds of there being a loving and caring God seems less and less of a real probability to me. I appreciated your response to me, Thanks, Toreador

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